Re: Re: Re: Re: Item Creation pricing question
I'm not sure this approach works for items outside of +5 or so (and even not necessarily for them). Rather, I think you have to look at the level of the spell (possibly along with the utility of the spell).
For example, a Use Activated Unlimited Charges Ring of True Strike, Any Weapon.
True Strike is +20, so if you make it equivalent to a +20 Weapon, the base cost becomes:
20 * 20 * 2000 / 2 (only does to hit, not damage) or 400,000 GP
Since it only works every other round and is not continuous (like a weapon), this might drop it to 100,000 GP. Add on to that the fact that it can be used with any weapon might increase it back up to 200,000 GP (rough guess, remember, we are using a bonus weapon equivalent here, not the spell itself).
Is such an item REALLY worth 200,000 GP? Or even anywhere near that ballpark?
Well, maybe, but extremely doubtful.
We'll ignore the following special circumstances here for a moment which might increase the utility of the item and concentrate instead on base capability:
1) Haste
2) Activate True Strike, move in, get an AoO if opponent tries to get away with anything but a move or double move. Repeat cycle and rinse.
3) Power Attacks
4) Critical Hits
5) Other feats such as Great Cleave
What does the item do if you are using it full bore?
1) It decreases your number of attacks since you have to activate it every other round.
2) One attack every other round is at +20, above and beyond any other bonuses to hit.
There are basically four cases here:
1) On round one you get a full round attack, on round two you get a full round attack.
2) On round one you get a full round attack, on round two you get a single attack.
3) On round one you get a single attack, on round two you get a full round attack.
4) On round one you get a single attack, on round two you get a single attack.
So, you could activate the item on round one and get the extra bonus to attack on round two as opposed to taking your round one attacks. This results in chances to hit of (assuming only a 16th or higher level Fighter could afford such an item):
1) X+X-5+X-10+X-15+X+X-5+X-10+X-15-8(Y-20) vs. 19+X-5+X-10+X-15-3(Y-20) or
8X - 8Y + 100 vs. 3X - 3Y + 49
2) X+X-5+X-10+X-15+X-5(Y-20) vs. 19 or
5X - 5Y + 70 vs. 19
3) X+X+X-5+X-10+X-15-5(Y-20) vs. 19+X-5+X-10+X-15-3(Y-20) or
5X - 5Y + 70 vs. 3X - 3Y + 49
4) X+X-2(Y-20) vs. 19 or
2X - 2Y + 40 vs. 19
where X is the character's normal total to hit and Y is the opponent's AC. Note: the +20 hit becomes a 19 (dropping out X and Y) since this almost always results in a 95% chance to hit (unless your opponent's AC is 23 or more greater than your chance to hit which should rarely happen and isn't worth considering).
So, for the True Strike to be advantageous in case #1, 3X - 3Y + 49 must be greater than 8X - 8Y + 100 (in other words, the combined total chances to hit by replacing a full round action with a True Strike must be greater than not doing that).
3X - 3Y + 49 > 8X - 8Y + 100?
5Y > 5X + 51
Y > X + 10.2
Or, the AC must be 11 greater than the to hit for the True Strike to help. At low level, this may happen with some frequency. Then again, you will not own this item at low level. At high level, it becomes extremely difficult since BABs increase every level and AC does not, so the chances of these very high AC situations coming up becomes extremely rare.
The math works out to:
1) Y > X + 10.2
2) Y > X + 10.2
3) Y > X + 10.5
4) Y > X + 10.5
Cases 1 and 2, and 3 and 4 worth out identical due to a lot of the round two attacks being the same in both equations and falling out completely.
It can be illustrated that this math is basically correct since case 4 is Y > X + 10.5. Since two 50% chance to hit attacks do more damage on average than one 95% chance to hit, you would only do the True Strike if you had less than a 50% chance to hit (i.e. X + 10.5 < 20) in case #4.
Also, case #4 illustrates that this works no better at low level with one attack per round than at high level. Low level character would only have case #4 and not cases #1 through #3.
Even things like Haste do not really matter since there is not much difference between giving up an attack in round one and getting a bonus in round two than there is giving up the first attack in round one and getting a bonus in the second attack in round one. It works out the same.
Now, Quickened Haste would give a benefit here, but not a huge one.
So, it is apparent that even at high level, without significantly boosting the utility of this item by combining it with Power Attack, and/or special tactics and feats, it is better to not use the item at all except in the most extremely high AC opponent cases where it is very difficult to hit. Your base chance to hit has to be less than 50% for this item to help. Hence, this item is not worth nowhere near 200,000 GP. Maybe it is worth 20,000 GP or so (and I think they have a Bow like this in S&F, so maybe someone can look up what WotC thinks it is worth when applied to a single specific weapon).
It may be worth more to an arcane spell caster than a combatant type, but if your arcane spell caster is getting into combat, this item is not going to save him. It will merely give him a false sense of security that is unfounded.
So, you cannot just look at the bonus. You have to look at how often that bonus is useful as well.
Ok, I'll get off my math kick for the day. I just wanted to illustrate that using bonus item comparisons in order to come up with item worth is suspect at best and faulty at worse.
Staffan said:
I'm not sure this approach works for items outside of +5 or so (and even not necessarily for them). Rather, I think you have to look at the level of the spell (possibly along with the utility of the spell).
For example, a Use Activated Unlimited Charges Ring of True Strike, Any Weapon.
True Strike is +20, so if you make it equivalent to a +20 Weapon, the base cost becomes:
20 * 20 * 2000 / 2 (only does to hit, not damage) or 400,000 GP
Since it only works every other round and is not continuous (like a weapon), this might drop it to 100,000 GP. Add on to that the fact that it can be used with any weapon might increase it back up to 200,000 GP (rough guess, remember, we are using a bonus weapon equivalent here, not the spell itself).
Is such an item REALLY worth 200,000 GP? Or even anywhere near that ballpark?
Well, maybe, but extremely doubtful.
We'll ignore the following special circumstances here for a moment which might increase the utility of the item and concentrate instead on base capability:
1) Haste
2) Activate True Strike, move in, get an AoO if opponent tries to get away with anything but a move or double move. Repeat cycle and rinse.
3) Power Attacks
4) Critical Hits
5) Other feats such as Great Cleave
What does the item do if you are using it full bore?
1) It decreases your number of attacks since you have to activate it every other round.
2) One attack every other round is at +20, above and beyond any other bonuses to hit.
There are basically four cases here:
1) On round one you get a full round attack, on round two you get a full round attack.
2) On round one you get a full round attack, on round two you get a single attack.
3) On round one you get a single attack, on round two you get a full round attack.
4) On round one you get a single attack, on round two you get a single attack.
So, you could activate the item on round one and get the extra bonus to attack on round two as opposed to taking your round one attacks. This results in chances to hit of (assuming only a 16th or higher level Fighter could afford such an item):
1) X+X-5+X-10+X-15+X+X-5+X-10+X-15-8(Y-20) vs. 19+X-5+X-10+X-15-3(Y-20) or
8X - 8Y + 100 vs. 3X - 3Y + 49
2) X+X-5+X-10+X-15+X-5(Y-20) vs. 19 or
5X - 5Y + 70 vs. 19
3) X+X+X-5+X-10+X-15-5(Y-20) vs. 19+X-5+X-10+X-15-3(Y-20) or
5X - 5Y + 70 vs. 3X - 3Y + 49
4) X+X-2(Y-20) vs. 19 or
2X - 2Y + 40 vs. 19
where X is the character's normal total to hit and Y is the opponent's AC. Note: the +20 hit becomes a 19 (dropping out X and Y) since this almost always results in a 95% chance to hit (unless your opponent's AC is 23 or more greater than your chance to hit which should rarely happen and isn't worth considering).
So, for the True Strike to be advantageous in case #1, 3X - 3Y + 49 must be greater than 8X - 8Y + 100 (in other words, the combined total chances to hit by replacing a full round action with a True Strike must be greater than not doing that).
3X - 3Y + 49 > 8X - 8Y + 100?
5Y > 5X + 51
Y > X + 10.2
Or, the AC must be 11 greater than the to hit for the True Strike to help. At low level, this may happen with some frequency. Then again, you will not own this item at low level. At high level, it becomes extremely difficult since BABs increase every level and AC does not, so the chances of these very high AC situations coming up becomes extremely rare.
The math works out to:
1) Y > X + 10.2
2) Y > X + 10.2
3) Y > X + 10.5
4) Y > X + 10.5
Cases 1 and 2, and 3 and 4 worth out identical due to a lot of the round two attacks being the same in both equations and falling out completely.
It can be illustrated that this math is basically correct since case 4 is Y > X + 10.5. Since two 50% chance to hit attacks do more damage on average than one 95% chance to hit, you would only do the True Strike if you had less than a 50% chance to hit (i.e. X + 10.5 < 20) in case #4.
Also, case #4 illustrates that this works no better at low level with one attack per round than at high level. Low level character would only have case #4 and not cases #1 through #3.
Even things like Haste do not really matter since there is not much difference between giving up an attack in round one and getting a bonus in round two than there is giving up the first attack in round one and getting a bonus in the second attack in round one. It works out the same.
Now, Quickened Haste would give a benefit here, but not a huge one.
So, it is apparent that even at high level, without significantly boosting the utility of this item by combining it with Power Attack, and/or special tactics and feats, it is better to not use the item at all except in the most extremely high AC opponent cases where it is very difficult to hit. Your base chance to hit has to be less than 50% for this item to help. Hence, this item is not worth nowhere near 200,000 GP. Maybe it is worth 20,000 GP or so (and I think they have a Bow like this in S&F, so maybe someone can look up what WotC thinks it is worth when applied to a single specific weapon).
It may be worth more to an arcane spell caster than a combatant type, but if your arcane spell caster is getting into combat, this item is not going to save him. It will merely give him a false sense of security that is unfounded.
So, you cannot just look at the bonus. You have to look at how often that bonus is useful as well.
Ok, I'll get off my math kick for the day. I just wanted to illustrate that using bonus item comparisons in order to come up with item worth is suspect at best and faulty at worse.
