Items in shop; everything or a limited selection?

[Theroc]

Thanks for that. Seems each time my group gets together now, there's some comment made about how the 'other side' does something different/better. Or how they are shocked that I allow something in my game.

I don't want to buy into these petty arguments and never attack the other table (just defend my game style), but the comments still make me wonder whether I am doing things that most would disapprove of (or are clearly against the rules).

So it's good to get some feedback from places like this. And it's given me some great ideas for how I can further improve things.

Well, if your players are always complaining about the other table, seems to me you're playing second fiddle.

No offense was intended by this, but if they're not satisfied with how you're running it, perhaps you should determine what could be changed to suit the expectations of both players and yourself, or whether or not your players want to play YOUR game, or just an extension of that other table.

No offense was intended by this, but without knowing how they are presenting things, it could either be a simple comment, or it could be in a more accusatory fashion, which sorta changes things a bit.

Personally, attacking another table seems silly to me. Sure, if what the other table does seems silly to you, I suppose feel free to talk to your own table about it... but going over to the other table and telling them they are silly is just rude and petty. Just seems counterproductive, as it could shift the focus into a 'peeing' contest between tables, if both parties slip into that mindset.

My personal opinion based on my limited experience says that having a magic store that has ALL magic items available would be a massive billboard saying, "ROGUES ROB ME HERE!" since magical items are like the massive diamonds of the D&D world, and at the magic marts, they've an entire store full.

I think the systems mentioned above about finding a person to buy them or just finding a craftsmen to place an order makes more sense. If you're handwaving the general process, just give a brief fluff description that you hired a craftsmage to make the item for the party members, etc...

That's just my opinion, take it with a grain of salt.

 

[DarkelvenSFi]

Well, if your players are always complaining about the other table, seems to me you're playing second fiddle.

Thanks for the feedback, but it seems my comment was a little ambiguous. The guys in my game are quite happy with how I run things, with the exception of one player [edit; and only on a few things]. Not one of us makes any negative comment about how the other table operates. The negative comments are directed at me.. which is why I started this thread; to see whether I really was doing things the 'wrong' way.

This topic was meant to be about whether shops should sell all or some items, rather than a rant about another groups game style. I'm a little ashamed that it's degraded into this sort of topic.

The player that isn't happy has been trying to get me to do things differently (like his other game style). He's only brought up a few differences, so it's not like this has been a long and drawn out 'battle of the game styles'.. it's just a simple things.

 

[Theroc]

Thanks for the feedback, but it seems my comment was a little ambiguous. The guys in my game are quite happy with how I run things, with the exception of one player [edit; and only on a few things]. Not one of us makes any negative comment about how the other table operates. The negative comments are directed at me.. which is why I started this thread; to see whether I really was doing things the 'wrong' way.

This topic was meant to be about whether shops should sell all or some items, rather than a rant about another groups game style. I'm a little ashamed that it's degraded into this sort of topic.

The player that isn't happy has been trying to get me to do things differently (like his other game style). He's only brought up a few differences, so it's not like this has been a long and drawn out 'battle of the game styles'.. it's just a simple things.

Ah, that clears things up a bit. I wasn't trying to point fingers at anyone, just stating that if players were having such troubles, that they'd be chronic unless addressed.

Glad it's not as big an issue as I had originally gotten from your first post. Good luck, seems these guys have covered most of the angles.

 

[Dyson Logos]

Typically in the game I'm playing in we deal with very limited supply - a lot of goods are not available or are at incredibly inflated prices.

When I run my game, most/all standard items are available at cost during downtime in major areas.

 

[Amazing Mumford]

Totally 100% up to the DM. Here's my view though, There are cities (in the Realms, for example, like in Calimshan or cities with Thayan Enclaves) that specifically state that magic is available and abundant, but other than that the DM should use good judgement-- remember supply and demand as well. Aurora's shops in the Realms are actually magic-item order shops, where you order an item and the shop-keeps basically get it teleported to the shop-- I'm not sure how many there are, I know there's one in the Dalelands... But NOWHERE does it say that items cost EXACTLY as much as the DMG/MIC lists. I do personally use the "wealth limits" for cities in the DMG, so PC's can't go to any old town or village and expect to get acid bows +3 and dancing shields +2. Also, the more magic-laden every little village turns out to be, the less excitement one gets when an item is found in a dungeon or an adventure. Magic items have more "value" when they are a little more hard to come by, and are not taken for granted nearly as much. Many players own or have access to the DMG, MIC, etc. and for some reason come to expect that any town or city has these magic-item shops with anything available at the list price because "it's in the book". That in my opinion is a false expectation, is meta-gaming (the PC doesn't own a MIC and has probably never heard of half the stuff in there anyway!), and leads to "munchkin" and "power-gaming" groups (Gah, I hate those terms!) ROLE-PLAYING is usually not considered, just "how powerful can I be" and "how can I best min/max" is prioritized. If that's how you want your game to be run though and everyone has fun with it, then by all means go for it! I think a lot of this is brought on by computer games like Baldur's Gate and Neverwinter Nights, where you just walk up to some random guy in the street and he has all these incredible magic items just lying around... That's fine for the computer game, but I don't think that translates to the regular game. Having said that though, we had a DM once who let us choose our magic items initially upon character creation, which was cool because we could customize the characters a bit instead of randomly rolling ridiculously inappropriate things...

Also, PC's always have the option of playing a character that can make magic items... I find it interesting though that most of the above-mentioned PC's won't even consider this option, because it involves taking "soft" feats and spending xp-- 2 sources of kryptonite for the Power Gamer!!

An interesting note, a party I was once in had a Power Gamer player and another PC who actually was interested in role-playing... the second PC had one or two Item Creation feats and the Power Gamer PC tried to convince this player to make magic items for him! And when the second player found rules dealing with xp cost in item creation, specifically if you make an item for another character the other character can basically sacrifice his/her own xp instead of you using yours, well all of a sudden the Power Gamer was no longer interested in getting items made for him...

 

[DarkelvenSFi]

And when the second player found rules dealing with xp cost in item creation, specifically if you make an item for another character the other character can basically sacrifice his/her own xp instead of you using yours, well all of a sudden the Power Gamer was no longer interested in getting items made for him...

I find that pretty funny in a bad way... I get something of a savage joy in seeing people like this reveal themselves as what they are.

I think the idea behind 'get someone in town to make it' is similar to the concept of just having all the items available in store; the only difference is the wait. If players want the choice of any item available, have their characters do the work to get it (feats). There's no need to sidestep a serious aspect of role-playing realism so the characters can have things easy.

Having a mystical shop that stocks everything; even explained as a service via teleporting isn't realistic. It means that someone owns all those items, they are stored somewhere and that means it can be robbed, the PCs may be tempted by this; and put the DM in a hard spot when deciding how the theft is repelled. And it detracts from the essence of the game itself; as Mumford pointed out.

I tend to be pretty stingy with magic items and gold. The shops do have a wide selection, but rarely what suits the players. They get most of their goods out in the dungeons.

 

[Jhaelen]

1: All items available in every shop

This, up to the gp limit for the city in question. Now, the shop won't have everything in stock, but if you're willing to wait a couple of days, they'll get it for you.

What makes the game more enjoyable for you? Realism or accessibility.

Talking about realism in D&D always makes me wince. You'd have to overhaul the complete system if you are interested in something remotely realistic. I don't believe it's worth the effort. Try a different rpg system if this bothers you.

 

[DarkelvenSFi]

Talking about realism in D&D always makes me wince. You'd have to overhaul the complete system if you are interested in something remotely realistic. I don't believe it's worth the effort. Try a different rpg system if this bothers you.

I'm always confused as to what people mean when they say 'you cant apply realism/logic to the game'. You have to.. The whole game is built around a set of rules that make sense. Barbarians can rage, wizards can cast spells, you need charisma to use diplomacy... etc. These rules are used as guidelines for gameplay; they promote realism in an otherwise formless world.

Realism is the need for players to walk from one place to another before they can ride, fly, teleport, etc; they don't just 'get to' where they want to be. Realism is the concept of having cities/villages/towns/etc where people live. Realism is having a battle system that allows each person a turn to act. Realism is having shops in the city that don't stock everything known to man...

It's about making the game as true to life as possible; within the boundaries of life in a fantasy world.

You're creating a world that makes sense. This is where the logic and realism comes into it. The further you move from the (fantasy) realism, the more you detract from the players being immersed into the game. Your aim is to suspend disbelief in the players; immerse them so far into it that they willingly forget that it's just a game.

If you continually incorporate things into the game that don't make sense, you risk tainting the game and reducing the enjoyment players (and you) get from it.

 

[Jhaelen]

I'm always confused as to what people mean when they say 'you cant apply realism/logic to the game'. You have to.. The whole game is built around a set of rules that make sense. Barbarians can rage, wizards can cast spells, you need charisma to use diplomacy... etc. These rules are used as guidelines for gameplay; they promote realism in an otherwise formless world.

Errm, nope, I have to disagree.
The D&D game rules make certain assumptions to ensure a certain kind of balance. E.g. if you decide it would be more realistic that there are no magic items at all then the pcs will be in big trouble at higher levels because the rules assume they'll have a certain amount of magic items. You can still play the game but you'll have to make adjustments to restore the balance that was upset because you made that change, e.g. grant the pcs automatic bonuses at certain levels, etc.

The more changes you make to one part of the rules, the more changes you'll have to make to other parts of the rules to make the game playable again. Some feel it's worth it to get a more 'realistic' game, some feel it's not worth it. I'm clearly in the latter camp.

Search the board for any kind of thread on D&D economics and you'll see what I mean.

 

[Amazing Mumford]

I think I agree with the jist of DarkelvenSFi's point, there is a certain "realism" incorporated into any fantasy setting. This is in addition to the "suspension of disbelief" element in a setting... The combination of the two lend to the uniqueness of each setting-- Middle Earth, Forgotten Realms, Star Wars, Star Trek, the Marvel Universe, Shadowrun... each is fantasy, yet each has it's own "reality".

In terms of this thread, I do not think it's realistic to walk into any blacksmith's shop and find for sale on the wall every style of every weapon in D&D. Sure he/she might have several different kinds of swords, but why would they necessarily have an Orc Double-Axe or Large Masterwork Trident? When special and/or rare items become commonplace, they lose their "value". That's Economics 101 right there, simple supply and demand, as well as the Law of Diminishing Returns. I also don't think it's realistic that a player could open up the DMG/MIC etc. and go "shopping" for anything on the magic item list, even if the item is within the city's suggested gp limit. Of course a +1 sword is going to be more common than a hammersphere or healing belt, for example.

Then again, it all depends on how the gaming group works... Some DM's don't have a problem with "magic item shopping", many gaming groups tend to be different so stick with what works. But at the same time, if you're the DM, you make the rules-- provided everyone has fun, of course! I like to give my PC's options, and try to keep it a little "realistic". Melvaunt on the Moonsea, for example, (Forgotten Realms campaign, if you hadn't guessed) is known for metalsmiths and weaponmakers, arms and armor. No mage's guilds, no wizard towers, very regulated marketplace. Magic is pretty rare there, but it's certainly a place to go for high-quality weapons and armor, and due to the high supply probably at a lower price than listed in the PH (Oh no, I used economics and reasoning to alter what the print says in a core rulebook!!) I also let the party's mage know, through role-playing and gathering information (Oh no, using soft skills!!) that there are several areas around the Moonsea that have Red Wizard Enclaves, but hint that the price of magic items there, while maybe at a discount, may be more costly than the player's realize... You are dealing with evil Thayans, after all..... And also not far is the town of Hillsfar, while not being a very friendly place has (quoted from Moonsea)

"...one of the only true magic shops in the Realms."

There certainly is realism built into the Forgotten Realms, if not other settings...