Items in shop; everything or a limited selection?

[Amazing Mumford]

The assumption is that anything under the GP limit is available to purchase. If a town has a GP limit of 3,000gp then you should be able to find nearly anything you want up to that value. You can even buy really cool stuff like light mithril armor etc...

'Magic item shops' are a DM created limitation...saying u can only get magic items from a specific shop is unrealistic. That would be like me shopping for a toaster oven, but somehow I can only look for it at stores called Nappa Auto Parts. There are any number of other ways one could procure magic items. It's meant to be kept abstract, so that the DM doesn't have to detail out 980 shops and NPCs and individual inventories. Most of the time you see the party go to town and offload their treasure, then they spend a week or 2 in town looking for the things they want, most of the time any individual PC is only looking for 1 or 2 specific things. Or in the unfortunate cases they have a list of 10-15 things they want because the DM never lets any items they want be in stock, or the DM does the dreaded %(and its always small) chance roll on every single item. 1 of 2 things happens, the PCs will sit there for months if they have to until they find what they want, or the DM will force them back onto the story arc, annoying the PCs in the process because they are gaining more levels but they can't find gear that NPCs 3 levels below them get for free (of the DMG). Especially since most of the time, the PCs want items that make sense for someone to create. Stat bonus items, cloaks of resistance, magic armor, rings of protection, magic weapons are all things that anybody could deal in and find buyers/sellers.

Trying to disect character knowlege vs player knowlege is another DM cop out...It's a really really bad idea unless you want characters to keep detailed lists of every item they've ever learned about and the title/contents of every book their character ever read, every conversation with the wizard, etc...Plus it makes the players say silly things like 'I ask bob the wizard to tell me about every magic item he knows how to create, what items can I know about shopping for now?' or 'Hrmm...I'd really like to find a magic ring that somehow protects me from getting hurt' then the DM goes 'ZOMG u meta-gamed! 50 DKP minus!'

I disagree, it really isn't-- in-character vs. out-of-character knowledge I feel is easily seperated. Knowledge skills go a long way! I don't totally disagree though, I do think it makes total sense to have the items "spread out" over several different shops-- and also for instance that simple stat boost/ring of protection/magic arms and armor would be a lot more "common knowledge" on a Knowledge: Arcana or Gather Information check, maybe around DC 10-15. Not that hard to pull off! Also I feel these items would be more readily available. But I would say that the more obscure items would not be "common knowledge". Imagine it like this-- the MIC just came out, and the player's don't own one yet. Are they going to ask for things like a healing belt or anklet of translocation?? Probably not!! As soon as the player's read about them though, doesn't equate to their PC's all of a sudden gaining that knowledge... I'm talking about rings or items with multiple magical powers, arms/armor qualities above and beyond "+1" and/or "flaming", and most misc. magic items that don't provide simple stat boosts etc. I could give a thousand examples, here's two random examples:
1) ioun stones- what PC is going to walk in a store and say "I need something that's going to float around my head and make me not need to breathe"

2) akkabar's battleblade ring (PGF)- again, who would say "I'm looking for something in a ring that might fly off my finger and turn into a blade barrier"

Here's where role-playing and NPC "conversations" come into play-- maybe the PC's have come across and NPC with a little gemstone orbiting his/her head, and the next city they go to the PC wizard decides to do a little research (provided he/she didn't already have a pretty high Knowledge: Arcana roll); then out-of-character info becomes in-character knowledge. With the second example, say the cleric of Tempus or Tyr goes to the temple and talks with an NPC there about an up-coming foe, and asks if the temple might have anything to help in battle-- then the DM could possibly introduce the aforementioned battle ring.

OK, I admit that these scenarios do take role-playing time, and I totally agree that in some gaming groups this will not work. Personally, I really hate the idea of "generic cities" all over the land, and do my best to inject a little flavor. I use the Forgotten Realms, and a lot of these cities are fleshed out a bit and so my job is a lot easier-- Calimshan is a much different place than Mulmaster, for example! And a simple little flip through Volo's Guide to the Dalelands is perfect if a PC is in the area and is "looking for something". I like action too, don't get me wrong, I am just as bored as the players with a 2-3 hour "shopping" session... So I try to balance it all out. The PC's don't ALWAYS get exactly what they want, sometimes they do, but if not they will at least get some pretty cool and usable stuff. I will agree that this is NOT the case for every setting, and some DM's just don't to put the extra time in, or don't have time to. I have said before, use what works for you.....

 

[Oryan77]

A thing I see more & more every year and it disturbs me more and more is people saying, "Well in the [insert book name here] it suggests doing....".

So instead of thinking logically with their own brain first and then using the books to tweak their ideas & improve them, they go straight for whatever the rulebooks say & use that to support their reasons for why they incorporate things in their game world (in this case, magic item shops).

I'm not as old school as a lot of people here, so maybe you old farts can tell me; was this the way people did things back in 1e & 2e?

I started mid 2e and only have experience from one 2e group, and we didn't do this. So this trait carried over with me when I began DMing 3e. The way I approach the game is I imagine how a world might work, set some boundaries for the world, and then I take what I like from the rulebooks. So just because the MIC says that I can handle magic items a certain way doesn't mean that that is the way I should be doing it. But so many people expect a campaign to run the way the rulebooks suggest.

Do DMs even think for themselves? I still have never heard one good reason for why a PC should get to go on magic item shopping sprees just because the player metagames and reads through the DMG like it's a Sears catalog.

 

[Foxworthy]

A thing I see more & more every year and it disturbs me more and more is people saying, "Well in the [insert book name here] it suggests doing....".

So instead of thinking logically with their own brain first and then using the books to tweak their ideas & improve them, they go straight for whatever the rulebooks say & use that to support their reasons for why they incorporate things in their game world (in this case, magic item shops).

I'm not as old school as a lot of people here, so maybe you old farts can tell me; was this the way people did things back in 1e & 2e?

I started mid 2e and only have experience from one 2e group, and we didn't do this. So this trait carried over with me when I began DMing 3e. The way I approach the game is I imagine how a world might work, set some boundaries for the world, and then I take what I like from the rulebooks. So just because the MIC says that I can handle magic items a certain way doesn't mean that that is the way I should be doing it. But so many people expect a campaign to run the way the rulebooks suggest.

Do DMs even think for themselves? I still have never heard one good reason for why a PC should get to go on magic item shopping sprees just because the player metagames and reads through the DMG like it's a Sears catalog.

That sounded a bit condescending.

First off, magic item shops are not suggested to exist by MIC except in largest of large cities. And the rules for players to be able to buy anything under the gp limit is in the DMG.

So yes, players can reasonable expect to be allowed to buy magic items, just like they can expect a longsword to do 1d8 damage. Unless they know the DM of the game doesn't use those rules. Nothing forces a DM to use any rule in any book to play the game.

But not using rules does not mean thinking for yourself, or you could have thought for yourself and not bought the rulebook at all. Thinking for yourself is reading the rules and using what's best for your game, and changing things that aren't best for your games to be best for your games.

No one here has advocated "one true way" of buying magic items.

Oh, and as for a good reason for why players can find items [and probably why the DMG suggest being able buy what you want] is because it's generally more fun for the players to get what they want rather then have to settle for whatever the DM whims them to have.

Their is no logical magic item distrabution in the game. Even if the DM determines availability that's not logical, that's arbitary. [And for good DM's that's fine]

Logically though only the best magic items would be available because no one would logically invest their own XP to make the subpar choices.

And if logically only the best stuff is around then what harm is there letting players buy whatever they want? Cause either they buy the best stuff that is around because logically no one would make subpar items, or they buy the sub par items that may not be the best but are what they want and since they aren't as good as the best they can't be overpowered.

Logic works to support the "buy what you can find under GP Limits" as well. The main advantage to the "buy what you can find under GP limits" is that the DM doens't have to spend time making inventories for every magic item store in the world and/or spend time having the players looking around for stuff.

Unless of course the DM has fun making the inventories, and/or the players have fun searching for items.

 

[Jhaelen]

I still have never heard one good reason for why a PC should get to go on magic item shopping sprees just because the player metagames and reads through the DMG like it's a Sears catalog.

Maybe it's just because you haven't been listening?

 

[Oryan77]

That sounded a bit condescending.

Asking a question & disagreeing with a viewpoint makes me condescending? Ok.

I can argue so many points about your post, but I don't mean to be argumentative as you are being with me. I will just say that I don't agree and leave it at that.

I'm not trying to argue about anything. I'm not even saying it makes a game bad. I just keep hearing people trying to prove points in this thread by saying, "It says in so-n-so book that..." and I'm questioning why that is supposed to be reason enough for why it's not good if a DM doesn't have magic item shops. When that is your answer & you say it as if that's good enough to prove your point, then no, you are not thinking for yourself.

But when you say:

because it's generally more fun for the players to get what they want rather then have to settle for whatever the DM whims them to have.

that's a very good explanation for why you would use magic item shops in your campaign. It's not a good enough reason for me to resort to it, but I understand why someone would for that reason.

I guess my last post was asking more of "why do more people seem to use the rulebooks to dictate how their world works rather than creating their own way for how their world works"? And I am not talking about 'crunch', such as why a sword does 1d8 dmg. I'm referring to 'fluff', the things that make your world come alive. A reason I ask is because I even got a negative reaction in this thread when I mentioned how my campaign works....as if it's a negative thing to do. So people obviously have an expectation about magic items no matter what world a DM runs (just because that's what the rulebooks say?).

It seems like more players complain about magic items when this is the way the group approaches the creation of a campaign world & their PCs. Player attitude towards this would be a lot different if they never had access to the DMG & MIC.

Maybe it's just because you haven't been listening?

No...I'm pretty sure that's not it.

 

[Evilusion]

For the OP, yes the players will try to go on magic shopping sprees, but it is up to the DM to say yes or no.

Other options you have is to mark the items up that the players want to buy. Someone has to be making the stuff and that someone needs to make a profit. I tend to use a mark up anywhere from 1% to 25%. If the player wants it bad enough they will either make it or buy it.

Evilusion

 

[green slime]

It seems like more players complain about magic items when this is the way the group approaches the creation of a campaign world & their PCs. Player attitude towards this would be a lot different if they never had access to the DMG & MIC.

Firstly, that is because "playing DnD" now entails certain player expectations, which are different from the expectations of players in the 70s and 80s.

In the 70s and 80s, influenced by books and literature wherein magic is described as rare and wonderful, the gaming culture in general was probably more willing to accept a dearth of magical items available for purchase (although the adventures of the period were often drowning in minor magical items).

The advent of the videogame and PC game probably reduced this willingness. Reducing reliance on DM arbitrariness is also a factor.

Another factor may also be the changing demographic of players. More players are older, and may feel they have been down that road of restricting magical items, and found that there was no real gain to the immersion/feel of the world to be made by frustrating player desires in terms of which magical items they need/want in the long term. Short term, of course, it can be inspiring to need to adventure to get the item in question, but if every everburning torch requires six months seeking in mosquito-infested swamps then...

So in summary, because of the changes in player expectations over a period of three decades, care needs to be taken to inform players of changes from the expected defined "norm", in order not to create unnecessary tension.

 

[green slime]

During the days of 1e and 2e, I usually had a list made up of the items available which the players could select as their reward (usually representing a selection of items from the royal vault).

Large towns, in 3e, I just say anything under X gp is available, the rest I will usually guesstimate the chance of something being available.

Small towns, I know the NPCs present, their levels and their feats, and make a list of suitable items that are available for purchase thereafter.

 

[Foxworthy]

Asking a question & disagreeing with a viewpoint makes me condescending? Ok.

No. What made it sound condescending was saying that people who use the rules in the DMG and MIC aren't using their brains first to think logically and then later implying that those DM's don't think anymore. Which added to your post coming off as condescending.

Disagreeing with my viewpoint is perfectly fine, and in fact is encouraged. I find having discussion rather boring if everyone agrees with me.

 

[Oryan77]

Firstly, that is because "playing DnD" now entails certain player expectations, which are different from the expectations of players in the 70s and 80s.

Everything you said was actually very insightful and makes a lot of sense.

I wasn't sure if I just had the wrong impression on older D&D groups. I thought maybe I'm just a freak for how I still handle magic items in our campaign (well, I guess I still am). People think it's bad enough that I don't have magic item shops; I'm afraid what people would say if they heard the other restrictions I have on magic items in my game

I guess people just don't look at magic items in stories as being all that unique & special anymore. I must have been a DM for way too long, I'm out of touch with the modern player