Pathfinder 1E Iterative Attacks and Pathfinder

[dagger]

First Question: TB says that characters get a 2nd attack at 6th at -2 instead of the normal at -5.

So is it saying it only happens when they normally would get an extra attack (full BAB classes at 6th), or all classes get it at 6th regardless of BAB?

 

[Vespucci]

First Question: TB says that characters get a 2nd attack at 6th at -2 instead of the normal at -5.

So is it saying it only happens when they normally would get an extra attack (full BAB classes at 6th), or all classes get it at 6th regardless of BAB?

I am working from memory, but I don't think that's right. It's definitely nothing to do with class or character level, but a pure function of BAB. As I recall, in Trailblazer characters get to make two attacks at -2 to hit once they have +6 BAB. That means +4/+4 instead of +6/+1. Wulf certainly claims that these are similar in overall effect, but his option is less fiddly (you only need to remember that it's -2 TH when you're making iterative attacks, rather than -5 for each attack after the first). If you think about the Trailblazer target of 70% success, we're talking about two attacks at 60% for X damage, rather than one at 70% and one at 45% for X damage - in other words, 120% of X versus 115% of X.

 

[dagger]

So a monk would get his at 8th level as normal but both be at +4/+4. Where a fighter at that point would be +6/+6.

 

[AdmundfortGeographer]

The monk gets the extra attack at 8th level, yes.

But the monk is a bit odder because of flurry of blows which lets the monk attack twice with a full attack action right away at 1st level but suffering a –2 penalty to both rolls. The penalty to flurry of blows drops to –1 to all rolls at 5th level, then drops to +0 to all rolls at 9th level. The iterative attack is a full attack, so is flurry of blows so why not flurry when the result is the same.

The monk gets flurry of blows when centered and being centered grants a bonus to attack rolls, at 8th level being centered bestows a +2 bonus to attacks, effectively canceling out the –2 penalty for all attacks for the iterative attack. Being centered jumps to a +3 bonus at 9th level, fwiw.

FWIW, at 6th level a monk's using flurry of blows is +5/+5 when the fighter is using iterative attacks at +4/+4.

The final result for the TB monk's full attack flurry of blows at 8th level is three attacks, +5/+5/+5 (one extra attack from flurry of blows and a third extra attack from the iterative attack bonus for BAB +6) where the fighter is +6/+6

+5/+5/+5 vs +6/+6 . . .

The centered TB monk at 9th level jumps to +7/+7/+7, and the 9th level fighter is +7/+7.

At 11th level the centered TB monk gets an extra flurry attack for +9/+9/+9/+9 and the 11th level fighter is +10/+10

At 15th level the centered TB monk is now +11 BAB for +14/+14/+14/+14 and the 15th level fighter is +14/+14

 

[dagger]

[sblock]

[/sblock]


You posted right before me Eric and I was going to ask how to handle the ole flurry.

 

[dagger]

I am more trying to find out how to apply the Trailblazer iterative attacks to a Pathfinder monk not a TB monk.

 

[Vespucci]

I am more trying to find out how to apply the Trailblazer iterative attacks to a Pathfinder monk not a TB monk.

OK. Here's the worst possible way you could do it:

[sblock]1st level: Standard +0, Flurry -2/-2.
8th level: Standard +6, Full Attack +4/+4, Flurry +2/+2/+2/-3
15th level: Standard +11, Full Attack +10/+10, Flurry +8/+8/+8/+3/-2[/sblock]

That means only importing the iterative attacks from TB (otherwise using PF's RAW). I don't have Wulf's Two-Weapon Fighting feats in front of me, but ISTR that they would make this less horrible.

My preferred solution would be to just play Trailblazer. If that's unacceptable to your playing group, you are welcome to use my house rule, "Lie about the game's name".

 

[AdmundfortGeographer]

I am more trying to find out how to apply the Trailblazer iterative attacks to a Pathfinder monk not a TB monk.

Use the Pathfinder monk, but if you are going to use the TB rules for iterative attacks then go full out with it and swap in the TB's bonus for centered and the TB monk flurry rules.

 

[theedj]

Per Pathfinder: "...he may make one additional attack using any combination of unarmed strikes or attacks with a special monk weapon as if using the Two-Weapon Fighting feat. For the purpose of these attacks, the monk's base attack bonus is equal to his monk level."

At 8th level he gains the equivalent of Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, and thought it isn't mentioned in the text at 15th level he gains a third iterative attack with the off-hand (you can see this by examining the table that shows the progression of Flurry) so he gains Greater Two-Weapon Fighting at 15.

To apply the Trailblazer rules to it (remember the attack bonus is at a -2 penalty from the TWF, and when iterative attacks begin to appear attacks are at a -2 penalty when the BAB reaches +6, -1 when the BAB reaches +11, and the penalty is gone when the BAB reaches +16)...

Lev 1 : Main -1, Offhand -1, TB equivalent -1 & -1
Lev 2 : Main +0, Offhand +0, TB equivalent +0 & +0
Lev 3 : Main +1, Offhand +1, TB equivalent +1 & +1
Lev 4 : Main +2, Offhand +2, TB equivalent +2 & +2
Lev 5 : Main +3, Offhand +3, TB equivalent +3 & +3
Lev 6 : Main +4/-1, Offhand +4, TB equivalent +2/+2 & +4
Lev 7 : Main +5/+0, Offhand +5, TB equivalent +3/+3 & +5
Lev 8 : Main +6/+1, Offhand +6/+1, TB equivalent +4/+4 & +4/+4
Lev 9 : Main +7/+2, Offhand +7/+2, TB equivalent +5/+5 & +5/+5
Lev 10: Main +8/+3, Offhand +8/+3, TB equivalent +6/+6 & +6/+6
Lev 11: Main +9/+4/-1, Offhand +9/+4, TB equivalent +8/+8 & +8/+8
Lev 12: Main +10/+5/+0, Offhand +10/+5, TB equivalent +9/+9 & +9/+9
Lev 13: Main +11/+6/+1, Offhand +11/+6, TB equivalent +10/+10 & +10/+10
Lev 14: Main +12/+7/+2, Offhand +12/+7, TB equivalent +11/+11 & +11/+11
Lev 15: Main +13/+8/+3, Offhand +13/+8/+3, TB equivalent +12/+12 & +12/+12
Lev 16: Main +14/+9/+4/-1, Offhand +14/+9/+4, TB equivalent +14/+14 & +14/+14
Lev 17: Main +15/+10/+5/+0, Offhand +15/+10/+5, TB equivalent +15/+15 & +15/+15
Lev 18: Main +16/+11/+6/+1, Offhand +16/+11/+6, TB equivalent +16/+16 & +16/+16
Lev 19: Main +17/+12/+7/+2, Offhand +17/+12/+7, TB equivalent +17/+17 & +17/+17
Lev 20: Main +18/+13/+8/+3, Offhand +18/+13/+8, TB equivalent +18/+18 & +18/+18

Putting it all together...
Lev 1 : -1/-1
Lev 2 : +0/+0
Lev 3 : +1/+1
Lev 4 : +2/+2
Lev 5 : +3/+3
Lev 6 : +4/+2/+2 (recommend +3/+3/+3)
Lev 7 : +5/+3/+3 (recommend +4/+4/+4)
Lev 8 : +4/+4/+4/+4
Lev 9 : +5/+5/+5/+5
Lev 10: +6/+6/+6/+6
Lev 11: +8/+8/+8/+8
Lev 12: +9/+9/+9/+9
Lev 13: +10/+10/+10/+10
Lev 14: +11/+11/+11/+11
Lev 15: +12/+12/+12/+12
Lev 16: +14/+14/+14/+14
Lev 17: +15/+15/+15/+15
Lev 18: +16/+16/+16/+16
Lev 19: +17/+17/+17/+17
Lev 20: +18/+18/+18/+18

 

[theedj]

Just as a quick point of note, TB has its own set of TWF chain feats. If you use those instead of the PF chain for determining how Flurry works, it does change the result and I believe you end-up with the Flurry progression that is printed in TB.