It's like the 'new' World of Darkness was for me.

[The Little Raven]

Agreed. Amusingly, it looks like Vampire: the Requiem is going to be much more mechanically similar to Vampire: the Masquerade than D&D 4e will be to D&D 3.5e. It certainly is than D&D 3.0 is to AD&D 2nd Edition.

I think the difference between 3.5->4e is roughly the same as oWoD->nWoD, as far as the system goes. Most of the basics are still there, but things have been simplified to make the core mechanics even tighter than previously (single progression for all classes; single target number for all rolls).

The difference from 2e->3e was way bigger than the oWoD->nWoD change, though.

 

[Voss]

One of the major flaws of the nWoD is they kept the shoddy mechanics and ditched the good fluff (along with some bad fluff, admittedly) in favor of even less interesting fluff.

It really isn't a 'new variation' of their system. Its tweaked slightly, largely in ways that make it easier to break.

Their real mistake, however, was actively aggravating their existing fan base by keeping old terms and concepts and making them mean something completely different. Ventrue are the crazy vampires now? With malkavians as an extra crazy bloodline? Why?

 

[The Little Raven]

It really isn't a 'new variation' of their system. Its tweaked slightly, largely in ways that make it easier to break.

Not as I see it. They went from a variable target number, success threshold, and dice pool increase/reduction system for determining the difficulty of a task to a single target number, no success threshold (just a bonus for getting a huge number of successes; one success means the actions succeeds), with dice pool increase/reduction being the only method of altering difficulty of a given action. That makes probability easier to manage, and on-the-fly difficulty calls are easier. The whole Power/Finesse/Resistance setup for Attributes is great for designing powers, and takes guesswork out of a lot of it. And the jewel: a base system for every game, instead of repeated, slightly different rules in each book.

Their real mistake, however, was actively aggravating their existing fan base by keeping old terms and concepts and making them mean something completely different. Ventrue are the crazy vampires now? With malkavians as an extra crazy bloodline? Why?

This makes me think you haven't read it, since the Ventrue are exactly what the Ventrue were before: lords over the damned. It's simply that their new weakness means that they degenerate into madness easier than others, since the weight of power burdens them. The key difference between Masquerade's clans and Requiem's clans is that Masquerade's were a collection of stereotypes with Rein-Hagen's beloved Ars Magica tossed in as the Tremere, while Requiem's are the five basic vampire archetypes (sensual, monstrous, bestial, mysterious, tyrant). There's more to a clan than just it's weakness, y'know.

 

[Calico_Jack73]

Gotta agree with the OP.

At first I was disappointed that the oWoD had come to an end. However, White Wolf had always said that they weren't going to continue it forever... they knew they were going to bring the series to an end and at least they were up front about it.

I was a bit of a sceptic with the new line. I don't think it is fair to expect ALL of the series to be "better" than the originals for everyone. However, the majority of them IMHO are MUCH better than the originals. Mage the Ascension was a wonderful game in theory but every single game I played or ran devolved into a "discussion" on what Spheres were needed to work an effect. It was so free-form that it's flexibility became a hinderance. I like that the new Mage relies more on rotes... free form is still available in the system but White-Wolf made rote casting much more attractive. For game play I think it was the right move. I'm not upset at the setting changes... there is nothing to stop someone from using the old setting with the new rules. If you want the Technocracy in Mage the Awakened, then put them in.

Changeling the Lost is IMHO FAAAAAR superior to it's predecessor and I love the idea of Promethean but have yet to play/run it. The new Vampire and Werewolf are likewise good games but don't show the vast improvement that Changeling did. One thing I love about all of them is that the setting is much more open to change for the individual Storyteller. The storyline isn't nailed down as much as the previous version of WoD.

Anyway, back to the original topic of the thread. I truly hope the OP is correct in their assessment. I love the nWoD and wouldn't go back to the old system though I might use the setting. I hope the same goes for 4e.

 

[Voss]

Not as I see it. They went from a variable target number, success threshold, and dice pool increase/reduction system for determining the difficulty of a task to a single target number, no success threshold (just a bonus for getting a huge number of successes; one success means the actions succeeds), with dice pool increase/reduction being the only method of altering difficulty of a given action. That makes probability easier to manage, and on-the-fly difficulty calls are easier. The whole Power/Finesse/Resistance setup for Attributes is great for designing powers, and takes guesswork out of a lot of it. And the jewel: a base system for every game, instead of repeated, slightly different rules in each book.

Still just a tweak. And the 'base system' is just a way to force people to buy an extra book. The rules between systems were close enough to function together, just as much as nWoD systems are.

This makes me think you haven't read it, since the Ventrue are exactly what the Ventrue were before: lords over the damned. It's simply that their new weakness means that they degenerate into madness easier than others, since the weight of power burdens them. The key difference between Masquerade's clans and Requiem's clans is that Masquerade's were a collection of stereotypes with Rein-Hagen's beloved Ars Magica tossed in as the Tremere, while Requiem's are the five basic vampire archetypes (sensual, monstrous, bestial, mysterious, tyrant). There's more to a clan than just it's weakness, y'know.

And the madness makes the ventrue *very* different. They were paragons of control, now they're slaves to degeneration (or rather, the dice rolls). And actually, apart from which disciplines they get a price break on, there isn't anything to the nWoD vampire clans *except* their weaknesses. And many of the weaknesses are so harsh (and inconsistent between clans and bloodlines) that they overshadow everything else. Everything else is fluff and playing to a vague stereotype, or not. You can ditch everything else and it doesn't actually matter- you can come up with any concept you care to name and just slap the clan weakness on as an afterthought. A Mekhet bruiser is the same a Mekhet scholar or a Daeva bruiser or Nosferatu scholar. Except for a couple discipline points and the big giant glaring weaknesses.

That wasn't really true in oWoD. A Tremere scholar was a very different animated corpse than a nosferatu scholar, and not just because one was ugly on the outside.

 

[Seule]

That wasn't really true in oWoD. A Tremere scholar was a very different animated corpse than a nosferatu scholar, and not just because one was ugly on the outside.

The old Clans were essentially stereotypes that most players I know tried to break out of at least to some degree, the new Clans are broader stereotypes that more easily stretch to incorporate various concepts.
Before, Tremere were all essentially the same. It was difficult to make a Tremere that wasn't a scholar, simply because the weight of all the crunch and fluff pushed you that way. If you pegged someone as a Tremere you knew pretty much everything about them. The only reason I know of that people played them was because of the overwhelming brokenness of the rules that governed them.
Nosferatu were all forced into one of just a few roles, due to having such a crippling flaw. Other Clans similarly, Gangrel once they hit Elder pretty much couldn't interact with mortals, Ravnos were all criminals (really! every single one!), while Toreador could be stopped in their tracks by seeing a painting at the wrong moment.
Some Clans didn't have such crippling flaws, and were (IMO) more playable and popular.

In the nWoD there are only five Clans, and they each have a flaw that's much, much less obtrusive than most of the old ones.
Ventrue will be more likely to go funny in the head if they start dropping Humanity... but low Humanity also makes it harder to interact with Mortals, which is pretty much their schtick, so that's not exactly crippling.
Daeva lose Willpower if they don't indulge their Vice. But, you get to decide what your Vice is and what it means, and if you choose not to indulge it losing Willpower isn't the end of the world. It comes back.
Nosferatu can't open-end on Social rolls. Big whoop. You can decide the reasoning why for yourself.
Gangrel can't open-end on mental rolls. Also big whoop. They can be smart, just no flashes of insight.
Mekhet have essentially the old Lasombra flaw, not exactly the most crippling thing. They are also quite possibly the most powerful Clan (they know secrets, in the WoD that's power) and having an extra weapon against them isn't a bad thing. If you even know you are facing one.

I guess my point is that Clan is no longer a straight jacket. Sure, a Tremere scholar is no longer by definition a different kind of scholar than a Nosferatu scholar (or Ventrue), because each clan actually has space for variety. All Tremere scholars were about the same, and all Nosferatu scholars were about the same, that's no longer true. Your clan no longer defines you. In fact, it's far more important in the game world, and conceptually, what Covenant you are in, and that has very little mechanical impact at all.
I wholeheartedly approve of most of the changes in the nWoD. Sure, a lot of my old books became obsolete, but the replacements are uniformly better, both crunch and fluff.

(Why yes, I do play both tabletop and LARP).

--Seule

 

[The Little Raven]

And the madness makes the ventrue *very* different. They were paragons of control, now they're slaves to degeneration (or rather, the dice rolls).

So, the only thing that defines something within a setting is game mechanics, rather than flavor text? Okay, there's where we differ, since I like roleplaying and not just picking things based on powers and weaknesses.

And actually, apart from which disciplines they get a price break on, there isn't anything to the nWoD vampire clans *except* their weaknesses.

There isn't anything to oWoD clans except Discipline and weaknesses. So... what's so different about nWoD?

A Mekhet bruiser is the same a Mekhet scholar or a Daeva bruiser or Nosferatu scholar. Except for a couple discipline points and the big giant glaring weaknesses.

That wasn't really true in oWoD. A Tremere scholar was a very different animated corpse than a nosferatu scholar, and not just because one was ugly on the outside.

Uh, not really. By your own standard, a Tremere bruiser is just the same as a Nosferatu bruiser, except for a couple Discipline points and the big giant glaring weakness. Just like nWoD, the only mechanical effects of clan are Discipline and weakness.

And if you want to talk about inconsistent weaknesses, oWoD is rife with them, like the Assamite weakness, which only comes into play when drinking Kindred blood... don't be a diablerist and it will never come up, as opposed to something like the Nosferatu weakness, which automatically penalizes you from the outset.

Maybe if you, I dunno, actually presented something besides opinion, you might actually have a point.

 

[Seule]

There isn't anything to oWoD clans except Discipline and weaknesses. So... what's so different about nWoD?

Wait! I found the difference!

OWoD had flavour differences, as well as discipline and flaw differences.
NWoD has flavour differences, as well as discipline and flaw differences. And, they get a free point in a stat that varies by Clan.
NWoD clans are more differentiated than oWoD clans, by the rules, and less differentiated in flavour. Best of both worlds, in my opinion.

--Seule

 

[GreatLemur]

If I want to play Mage: The Ascension I can do so at the drop of a hat...

Hell, I'm still doing that. And I'm a rushing-to-be-an-early-adopter 4e supporter.

But, really, I always tended to like all those weird d20/OGL variants more than straight D&D v.3.5, anyway. There's a pretty good chance that my next D&D campaign will end up being some mad hybrid of 3e, 4e, and True20.

Would it be a wrong assumption to say that the majority of the people upset with the nWoD is those who have all the books from oWoD?

The only World of Darkness stuff I've got is a few used oMage books which were given to me long after nWoD's launch. I was never really a big White Wolf fan at all, really, and I will talk a mile of smack about oWoD and nWoD both. But between the merciless blandification the reboot inflicted on the Mage line and White Wolf's increasing obsessions with symmetry and pigeonholing, I have more reasons to dislike nWoD.

Changeling the Lost is IMHO FAAAAAR superior to it's predecessor and I love the idea of Promethean but have yet to play/run it.

The new Changeling definitely looks better than the old one. Promethean is kind of disappointing, though, because it sounded like it was about unique created beings trying to find a place in the world, and turned out to be another game about reanimated dead people who are part of great big lineages. Feh.