It's official: Harm is broken.

[The Sigil]

/me wonders why we don't see more mutliclassed Wizard (Sorceror)/Druid (Cleric with healing Domain) characters solving the problem.

Contingency spell: "When I am affected by a Harm spell, trigger the Heal spell in Contingency."

Problem solved. Harm now does 1-4 points of damage. :-b

--The Sigil

 

[Storminator]

If you're a high level party, facing high level enemies and you get knocked down to negative hit points over the course of 5 rounds, the odds are pretty good your foes are in bad shape too. You're still "even" because everyone is in trouble.

If your foes start out hasted before init, beats you for init, casts harm and follows it up with a melee attack, you're dead before your first action.

If your party is doing this to your foes, it means the DM can NEVER plan an encounter against a single powerful foe, because you'll use the above routine, and kill it instantly.

Some folks have no problem with taking all the drama and adventure out of combat. I'm not one of those.

PS

 

[I'm A Banana]

Hey, everybody, look, another gripefest!

I like the alternate, but I don't think there's anything wrong with the original either....I just prefer rolling a big bucket of dice and saying "did you live?" more than I like crossing something off my spell sheet and saying "one down, three more to go!" It's got something of a BIGGER feel to it.

But, then, when I want a mage that blows stuff up, I go with the black mage.....ooooh the joy of rolling 1d12/caster level!

 

[Celebrim]

Errrr hmmm. And how many foes have you had that got down to 4 h.p. and then managed to beat the party? Properly timed, as in for example 'I hold my action until the cleric casts harm.', harm is an instant kill no save spell.

But broken? Hmmm, well.

1) Considering the average h.p. of a CR 13+ creature, it vastly exceeds the average damage per level a 6th level clerical spell is supposed to be able to do, even with the touch restriction.
2) It has no saving throw.
3) There are considerable more complaints against it wrecking compaigns than Destruction, which is 7th level and therefore presumably more potent. There are vastly more complaints against it than Implosion, which is 9th level.
4) The core spell with the most similar 'die no save' mechanics is 'Power Word Kill', which compared to harm has an upper limit of 100 h.p., is 9th level, and is arcane.

Therefore the whole debate that harm is not broken seems absolutely frivilous to me. The only saving grace of harm as written is that it is a touch spell. Even so, it needs to be rewritten to either have a save (like a weaker form of Destruction), or else have a h.p. cap (like weaker form of Power Word Kill), because it is otherwise a monolithic anomoly in how D&D handles spells and such anomolies are best reserved for 9th level spells if they are allowed at all.

 

[Tom Cashel]

I would agree with you completely, Celebrim, but that's the sort of thing that got me exiled from S.H.I.N.Y.

 

[Maitre Du Donjon]

I have not gone up to play high enough campaigns to actually see Harm in action, but I use it in NWN. Its a very potent spell. One thing that surprised me though (i know they changed the spells a bit when incorporating them to the CRPG environment) is that when you miss your touch attack in NWN, Harm is eneffective (of course) and lost. I have read the harm description in the SRD, but i can't figure out if this is the way its supposed to be played, or its the way they adapted it to NWN... Perhaps I should ask this in Rules?

Maitre D

 

[Lucius Foxhound]

That's right, Cashel. You and Monte are both banned from S.H.I.N.Y.

As the current president, I advise you to look to S.H.I.N.Y's shining example, Mr. Gary Gygax (may he rest in peace), for inspiration on your moral dilemma on whether to support Harm.

I suggest you go read "Saga of Old City" and report back.

 

[National Acrobat]

Hmm. Auto Hit on a 20, miss on a 1?

I have never used that rule, not even in 1 or 2 e. I struck that from the book on my first campaign.

Save or Die spells? My PC's are clever. There is only One rule in my games-What is good for the PC's will be used against them, absolutely no Whining allowed. My PC's have no problem with that rule whatsoever. They all know that dying is part of the game and the ones who like to use the Save or Die spells know that they will be coming back at them.