I've given myself an overwhelming project: Advice?

[adembroski]

Ok, this is a bit twisted, I know.

I want to run an Arthurian campaign as a pseudo-legendary world based on Stephen R. Lawhead's "Pendragon Cycle"

I have my own fairly extensive reading of Arthurian legend, but went out looking for products to help me.

First was Relics and Rituals: Excalibur, and then the Pendragon RPG. Both have proven to be immensely helpful, but I find I am drawn to Pathfinder as the system I want to do this for. I plan to incorporate vast amounts of Pendragon's ideas (specifically those mechanics that allow it to be an ongoing-multigenerational campaign with a strong metastory as its backdrop).

Pendragon, R&R:E, and Pathfinder, however, all fail to quite hit the note I'm looking for. Pendragon is limited to knights, R&R:E assumes a more D&D-like world, and Pathfinder, well, is D&D... i.e. magic is a bit much.

There are a couple of directions I'm considering going with magic (note that I'm going a bit more 'fantasy' than Lawhead, but I don't want mobile artillery platforms).

* Taking the time to completely rewrite spell lists, moving direct damage and other high profile/out of genre spells either up to prohibitive levels or removing them entirely on a case-by-case basis.

* Adopting a "Dragonlance: Fifth Age Saga" based point system (using d10 instead of cards, and assuming "0" is Trump and allowing 2 rerolls) that keeps magic in-check by its nature.

* Regrouping all of the spells into the Pendragon magical Talents. Anything that doesn't specifically fit those descriptions is eliminated.

Any ideas?

 

[Aus_Snow]

Pendragon is limited to knights

The 4th edition isn't; at least, not entirely. But every other edition is, yes.

Anyway, I haven't read Lawhead, so I'm not quite sure how you want it all to end up. If it were "straight Arthurian", I might be of more help. Even then, which source(s), and so on...

And I'm not familiar with Dragonlance Saga. :/

Well. Best of luck with it, anyhow.

 

[adembroski]

The 4th edition isn't; at least, not entirely. But every other edition is, yes.

Anyway, I haven't read Lawhead, so I'm not quite sure how you want it all to end up. If it were "straight Arthurian", I might be of more help. Even then, which source(s), and so on...

And I'm not familiar with Dragonlance Saga. :/

Well. Best of luck with it, anyhow.

... Lawhead would be, I guess, as close to interpretive historical as possible without completely eliminating the supernatural. Merlin, for instance, can transfix a room full of warriors with a harp or see hazy images from distant lands and times, but that's about the extent of his magic. His father was a bit more powerful, but it was mostly "God's Will". It seems to be a bit more innate with Merlin.

I don't want to limit it that much, but I do want the post-Roman Britain feel of it rather than the pseudo medieval feel most Arthurian legend uses.

Saga was the system the Dragonlance campaign setting used when it was removed from the D&D universe, mid '90s. Didn't go over well with DL fans, but the magic system was intriguing.

Since you know Pendragon: I have Pendragon 5.1... I was aware that there was a supplement that outlined magic for a previous edition. Would it be compatible with the newest version? I guess that doesn't matter that much, since I'm going to have to convert it further to Pathfinder, but I was hoping it would be something I could use directly should I ever run a pure Pendragon campaign.

 

[ruemere]

I believe you need a lighter system. D20 works fine within D20 parameters, but rewriting it to suit a particular purpose is a monumental task. It's easy to introduce some adjustments, it's altogether different issue to rebalance the whole game.

My suggestions:
- check Savage Worlds - it's light, easy to modify, does not require a lot of reading. Test Drive version is free to download and use.
- read Aria RPG (unofficial page) if you can get it. This is an RPG devoted to an idea of playing groups, clans, families or even nations.
- Kingmaker Adventure Path (Paizo) contains rules for building and developing your kingdom - worth a look for adventuring over years (Kingdom turn takes month of game time)

Unless you did something like this in the past, don't start big. Start small. Create a normal campaign, just make the starting characters a group of nobles. Introduce changes gradually.


Regards,
Ruemere

 

[Aus_Snow]

Saga was the system the Dragonlance campaign setting used when it was removed from the D&D universe, mid '90s. Didn't go over well with DL fans, but the magic system was intriguing.

Sorry, should've been more clear: I'd heard of it, but I have never seen a copy, let alone read (or used) the thing. It sounds intriguing, but not sufficiently that I'll be tracking it down any time soon. Mainly because I have too many damn books and boxes as it is.

I was aware that there was a supplement that outlined magic for a previous edition. Would it be compatible with the newest version?

Actually, it's just the 4th edition itself. No supplement springs to mind, for any edition.

It's unique in that way, as I mentioned. Most gamers, it seems, prefer any but that one, yet I find it has a certain charm, and well, utility. I don't see it as a means for players to go stomping all over Arthurian legends with clerics, druids and the lot. If anyone tried it, with the magic system presented, they would be sorely disappointed. Mostly, it's for NPCs anyway. But of course, that rests with the GM. You could certainly run a "party" of spellcasters, such as they are, using just the fourth ed. Pendragon corebook.


Not much use in your current situation though, I suspect. Translating it to PF would be more like switching systems, in the end, given how very magic-heavy - intricately and iconically so, at that - the game is, at its core.

But then, who am I to say. After all, I've used supps such as Miracles & Wonders, to replace pseudo-Vancian divine casting in 3e. And gone much further than that, while I was at it...

I'll try to think of some way I can be helpful. Wouldn't hold your breath, mind you.

 

[Thanael]

A simple houserule to limit spellcasters would be to require them to multiclass evenly. I think I saw that one in a LOTR-D20 adaption.

But I agree that you should probably look beyond d20 for this campaign. D&D/d20/Pathfinder all have the inbuilt D&D quirkyness which is hard to get out.

What is the Pendragon system lacking for you? Perhaps you can tack it on with Chaosiums Basic Roleplaying System or with Pendragon's 4th Edition ? (I do believe Pendragon is related to BRP though I'm not quite sure...)

 

[Aus_Snow]

Pendragon is most certainly related. Kissing cousins, perhaps. Well, anyway. It so happens - or so I've been told - that the Big Gold Book (aka BRP corebook) contains the Traits system from Pendragon as a rules option. It pretty much is, all in all, a collation and, um, smooshing together of the various BRP family members, from Stormbringer to Pendragon to Call of Cthulhu to RuneQuest. Possibly others I'm not remembering...


All that aside for the moment, there are of course some interesting third party options for spellcasting variants, partial system rewrites in general, and so on. Having mentioned Miracles & Wonders, it later occurred to me you might want to have a look at some of them. I'm unsure though, as simply naming products can really annoy some folks. Rightly so, I guess, because they mightn't suit, and sometimes it involves spending money to be certain.

That said, there are some good ones out there. Possibly for PF in particular, though I'm not very informed as to the available range there. D&D 3.5, on the other hand, well... Legends of Sorcery is one way to go. Incantations, perhaps with some tweaking - they're from Unearthed Arcana, or here.

And a ton of other alternatives, besides. But it really sounds like you'd rather work with DL Saga and, maybe, Pendragon. Keeping some of the 3.PF core magic? Hm. I'll have to see what I can find out about DLFA (whatever its correct acronym really is) before attempting some constructive guesswork.

 

[adembroski]

I would prefer to keep the Pathfinder system as intact as possible but prevent out-of-genre casting. I think that essentially means I'm going to be trimming the spell list, ultimately.

And, yeah, I've done similar before. My first attempt at an Arthurian feel was a homebrew I made about 7 years ago... it had a stronger pre-Roman Celtic vibe too it than I'm going for this time around, and I had a group willing to play in-genre, which made it all the easier.

I'm not particularly overwhelmed I guess. Last night when i posted this I felt like it... now it doesn't seem so bad since the game isn't starting for a month anyways. Wanted to avoid rewriting spell lists, but it seems to be the best way to achieve what I'm looking for.

 

[Maxecat1]

Hiya, I think taking the 'magic' out of the Pathfinder/D&D system will inherently
unbalance all of the classes/monsters etc (not, I guess, that there'll be too many
monsters) - it's just that these products are BUILT around high magic worlds...

I'd suggest taking a decent look at the Mongoose rules for Conan if you are
hell bent on using this style of rules. They toned down magic in a BIG way,
but still made it emminently suitable for the setting - especially as even though
Conan has a lot of the super natural about it - it's still low magic.
I really liked the rules, & they'd be an easy enough fit to port over a few
Pathfinder improvements (like skills) without inherently breaking the system.

Don't get me wrong - I LOVE what Paizo has done with Pathfinder & will soon
be using their Kingmaker AP (The second book of which is about kingdom
building & the fifth(?) about warring armies), I just think Conan would be
more easily convertible - i.e. you'd be able to use most of it straight out
of the book, with a setting change... Even then - if you used the Cimmerian
theme, there's the Celtic feel for you.

If you do want to try that - it's recently out of production, but there should
still be a fair few 2nd edition copies available.

Anyway - good luck. Especially if you go with changing Pathfinder - that is
a HUGE task.

 

[Stormonu]

If you want to continue using PF, you might want to limit/ban certain schools of magic (this would be easier than going spell by spell).

For ex., you might want to keep Illusion, Enchantment, Divination and Conjuration (Summoning). Necromancy might be limited to 3rd or 5th level magic and Evocation might be banned or capped at no greater than 3rd level.