I've got a problem in my game! Help!

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Fie on your social contract. I still stand with the idea that it's not a moral dilemma. It's nothing. If someone has run a module before, do you get mad at them for knowing what's going to happen? If you tell your players that you think the movie "Young Guns" is awesome and you want to do a game that's based on that, are you going to get angry when they go and watch that movie? "Oh no! He got spoilers!" Big deal. Did he come back and start telling everyone? No. Did he say that he would keep it all to himself and not act on it? Yes. Done. Zaruthustran's post has been one of the few sane posts in this entire thread.
 

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Engilbrand said:
If someone has run a module before, do you get mad at them for knowing what's going to happen?
That's not even close to what happened with the OP. The guy didn't happen to know info before the game because he already played or read the adventure before knowing that he would be playing it again. He intentionally went looking for that information when he found out he would be playing in the adventure...knowing that the DM didn't want players reading that info. Like I said before, spin it how you want, but that's cheating.

Defend him all you want, but it just shows your own character. I have more respect than that for a guy who wants to DM me. I'm not going to be selfish & intentionally disrespect my DM's simple request when he's worked hard to provide fresh new material for me to experience. If he didn't know the DM didn't want him to read the info, and the player didn't think it mattered if he snuck a peak, that's one thing. But this guy knew the DM didn't want him to sneak a peak, and disregarded the DM's request & read it because he doesn't care about anyones needs but his own. That's not only cheating, it's disrespectful.
 
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Social Contract Semantics

Engilbrand said:
Fie on your social contract.
If this term bothers you, then feel free to call it "honor" instead.

Engilbrand said:
If someone has run a module before, do you get mad at them for knowing what's going to happen?
This comparison is misleading. The culprit did not simply play a module that he was already familiar with. Instead ... he deliberately sought out information on a new module, in defiance of his DM's request.

Engilbrand said:
Zaruthustran's post has been one of the few sane posts in this entire thread.
I humbly disagree. The issue here is not wholly one of metagame knowledge ... it's about violation of trust and lack of respect.

-Samir
 

Update

The last time I looked at this thread before writing this major response was on post #54. This post is in response to everything that has been said since post #54.

To everyone who is debating betrayal and cheating: I agree with the people who think that he cheated. He broke an unspoken rule of the gaming table - the DM material is DM MATERIAL. It is not meant for players to see or take part in. In this particular circumstance, I told him not to, and he did it anyway. I don't care if "I told A to tell B, so A went and told B, which means that B isn't personally acountable because I didn't directly tell him myself..." - that doesn't even make sense. The player knew and understood my wishes and specifically and purposely went against them, learning more about what was behind my DM screen than he should know.

To the people that think this thread is "getting out of hand": I don't personally think so. I don't think anyone is specifically being called out or attacked for their views (even when my friend showed up, I pretty much immediately told him to email me at work so that we could discuss the issue outside of this forum). This thread may be a serious discussion ABOUT those views (very serious), but that's ok - that's how we learn from one another. On top of that, no moderators have deemed it necessary to step in, so I think everything is ok. I also don't feel as though I've taken any offense to anything said about this issue.

Regarding whether or not a player that does this is "trustworthy": I think it is obvious that a PLAYER of D&D that does something like this is most certainly untrustworthy AS A PLAYER. This might not make him untrustworthy as a person overall, but any player that does this will never roll a new level's worth of HP out of my sight ever again. I really don't understand how anyone could think otherwise. A player that does this is cheating at the game - plain and simple.

As for the other players, they've known about all this from the very beginning, and they both voted to just keep playing.

Now for the UPDATE:

I decided to not play D&D with the player in question. This decision came about because of the way he was acting outside of the game. I repeat: This decision has NOTHING to do with the ingame consequences of his actions. What this has to do with is how he has acted as someone who is supposed to be my friend.

I said to him: "We would be having a totally different conversation if you actually cared that you did the following: 1) potentially wasted the money that I, not you, spent on the adventure, 2) wasted all the time that I put into running this game for you and our other friends, time that vastly exceeds anything you've put into it as a player, and 3) potentially ruined the game for our other friends who probably can't play now, and if they ever play this adventure again with a different group will know 'spoilers'. However, you don't care. If I was in your position, even if I didn't care either, the first thing I would say is 'I'm sorry', because my pride isn't worth the game, our other friends, or our friendship."

To which he replied: "You're right, I definitely respect the money that you've paid for the adventure. I didn't pay anything. And I've DMed before, so I totally know and respect how much time you've put into the game. I might have to consider apologizing. I'll really have to think about it though."

So, I'm not going to let anyone treat me like that, about ANYTHING, especially when they are supposed to be my friend. This could be about cards, or guns, or lovers, or anything else. My integrity and standards are higher than that, and I will not be subjecting myself to being in the company of someone who disrespects me as such.

All the players know, including the one in question, and the rest of us will be getting together very soon to discuss what to do about the remainder of the game.


I would like this thread to continue, though, as it is a good discussion about what is "cheating" at the gaming table.
 

Logos!

tylermalan said:
So, I'm not going to let anyone treat me like that, about ANYTHING, especially when they are supposed to be my friend.
More power to you. I know the decision was not easy, but trust me ... you did the right thing.

Good gaming, and good life. ;)

-S.A.
 

tylermalan? Did it bug you?
Did it bug you enough to do something about it?

Seriously, it's not about rationalization. If the fact that he looked in that thread makes him uncomfortable to play with, then that's it. He's uncomfortable, don't play with him, move on. If you want to vent, please continue. If you want to get past it, get past it.

The only thing that you can deal with is what you feel about the situation and how you react. If he changes, or repents, or stays the same is out of your reach. Is it worth it to kick him out? Is it worth it to keep playing with him? You tell me.

Two personal notes:
1) I'm way less tight fisted with information than I used to be. I've announced things like "Roll spot to notice the goblin assassins sneaking up on you."
2) I'd be upset, but only because he did something I asked him not to. It's the confrontations around that that would get me heated enough to make a decision. The spoilage would almost be a non-issue.

Edit: I see I posted that a little late. Sounds like you already knew everything I said anyway. Hope it works out for you!
 


tylermalan said:
My integrity and standards are higher than that, and I will not be subjecting myself to being in the company of someone who disrespects me as such.
If he can't even man up and just apologize even if he honestly doesn't think he did anything wrong, he's the type that doesn't respect anyone and he'll never respect you. I guarantee he's never said the words, "I'm sorry" to anyone in his entire life.

If I screwed up in a situation as pathetic as yours (and we can all admit, your situation isn't that big of a deal), I would just apologize just to make you feel better even if I still thought I didn't do anything wrong. That's what friends & family do if they really respect & care about you. He not only won't apologize just to fix the situation, he tells you he'll think about it which is even more disrespecting & self centered.

If he'll disregard your request not to read info, then cheating on dice rolls and lying about ability score rolls & hit points is small potatos to him. Maybe it is better not to game with that kind of guy unless you don't care about people cheating in those ways (and I've seen posts from DM's that don't care about cheating from players).
 

Some people take D&D WAY too seriously. You let something that happened involving a game negatively impact your friendship. That's just not right. I still don't see how it's a waste of money and how it destroys the entire game and ruins it for everyone. If that doesn't happen with someone who's already played or run the module, how does it change ANYTHING now that he knows more? It doesn't. Also, I put absolutely NO stock in this whole "DM ONLY" crap. That's one of the most ridiculous things that I've ever read, and I read about it a surprising amount. Are you telling me that no players ever look through the DMG? MM? What about a campaign setting book? I've read a lot of Eberron stuff. I even did that when I was playing in a game. So? Would I get a stern talking to for knowing that Kaius is a vampire? OH MY GOD! That was a spoiler, wasn't it? Darn.
If one of my friends accused me of something that I don't agree was wrong, I would tell them that they need to lighten up and that I'm not apologizing. Your personal standards are not innately better than my personal standards. And, to the post earlier saying that that must say a lot about my character, I'm glad that it does. I believe that trust is the greatest thing that you can put in a person and, once earned, is a beautiful thing. Do I understand why people are flipping out? Sure. Most of you seem to have a different idea about this game than I do. I don't view it as cheating. I do believe that the position of the DM is some sacred seat deserving of sacrifice. Play the darn game and get off your high horses.
One of the fastest ways to piss me off is to falsly accuse me of something. Cheating is on that list in a serious setting. If my DM came at me fuming and telling me off, I'd be getting pissed and let him know that that's not acceptable. Also, there's no way in Hell that I would apologize for something that I didn't do. I've apologized quite a few times in the past. I'm a teacher. I have had students come to me and tell me that something has made them uncomfortable. After they've explained the situation, I've changed my behavior if I've agreed with them. They definitely get an apology. I then remind the class that they just need to come to me if they have a problem with something that I've said or done. EVERYONE I know knows that they can do that with me. To say that you MUST apologize, even if you don't agree, is like saying that the only thing that matters are the words, not the true meaning behind them. If your husband or wife said, "I love you." but didn't mean it, would that make you feel better?
 
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Engilbrand said:
Some people take D&D WAY too seriously.

I'm surprised about how many times I have to point out that this is NOT ABOUT A GAME. It is about RESPECT.

Engilbrand said:
Would I get a stern talking to for knowing that Kaius is a *SPOILER*? OH MY GOD! That was a spoiler, wasn't it? Darn.

Respect for others must be a really alien concept.
 

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