I've got a problem in my game! Help!

[Oryan77]

Are you telling me that no players ever look through the DMG? MM? What about a campaign setting book? I've read a lot of Eberron stuff. I even did that when I was playing in a game. So? Would I get a stern talking to for knowing that Kaius is a vampire? OH MY GOD! That was a spoiler, wasn't it? Darn.

Dude, there you go again...missing the whole point of this thread. It's been mentioned several times by several people, your comparison holds absolutely no weight in your argument. The guy didn't go and read some books on his own without realizing that one day, in the future, he will be playing a game that he just happened to have prior knowledge of. No, the guy found out that there is info relating to the game that he will be playing, and when knowing the DM didn't want anyone to read it, he went and read it.

Let's use your comparison as an example:

Acceptable = You're 10 years old, you pick up an Eberron adventure and read it because the cover art looked cool. At age 18, you join a group and they happen to run the same Eberron adventure you read back when you were 10. Darn, you have info about that adventure, but oh well, you didn't purposely learn that knowledge to have an advantage in this DM's game.

Bad = You've never played or read any Eberron adventures. Your DM says, "Hey, I'm going to run this specific Eberron adventure. I just want to make sure you don't buy this at the store and read it because it has cool cover art". Then 20 minutes later you're reading the copy of that adventure that you just bought at the store only because the DM told you he was running it.

It's not about having the prior knowledge to the game...it's about intentionally obtaining that knowledge when you knew the DM asked players not to. If you can't see that as wrong, then you're a class act :\

High horse? Any less than you? Yeah....whatever man.

 

[The Thayan Menace]

ENworld = Elite Gaming

Some people take D&D WAY too seriously.

You bet. It requires a fairly extensive time commitment, especially if you DM.

Running a campaign for hours (and weeks) on end for someone who consistently cheats and actively disrepects you is my idea of Hell.

-S.A.

 

[The Thayan Menace]

Apologia

To say that you MUST apologize, even if you don't agree, is like saying that the only thing that matters are the words, not the true meaning behind them.

Refusal to agree does not necessarily make a person right ... and one can cause a lot of damage out of ignorance (i.e., negligence).

Anyways, I don't believe anyone here requested an insincere apology.

-Samir

 

[ThoughtBubble]

Then why criticize?

-Samir

I'm not completely sure what you mean here. I think I missed one of the steps in your deduction. Would you spell it out for me?

Perhaps I should have said "What you feel is more important to how you should react than anyone else's stance on 'right play' or 'ruining fun' or anything else."

As to the curent branch of the conversation: The expectations in an RPG are different for different folks. That's why the simple statement (which may or may not be true) of "it's just a game" can produce so much arguement. Play with folks whos expectations fit with yours!

 

[The Thayan Menace]

Apologia (x2)

To say that you MUST apologize, even if you don't agree, is like saying that the only thing that matters are the words, not the true meaning behind them.

Of course, you could always say:

"Dude, I don't agree with you ... but you're my friend. It was not my intention to upset you, and I'd like to work this out. Please give me some time to cool off and I will call you back."

-S.A.

 

[The Thayan Menace]

True Dat!

Perhaps I should have said "What you feel is more important to how you should react than anyone else's stance on 'right play' or 'ruining fun' or anything else."

Agreed.

Play with folks whos expectations fit with yours!

Agreed.

-S.A.

 

[Engilbrand]

Spoilers! Omg, There Are Spoilers!!!!! The Last Line Is A Spoiler For Eberron!

I actually see what Ben said as being the equivalent of that statement. "You're right, I definitely respect the money that you've paid for the adventure. I didn't pay anything. And I've DMed before, so I totally know and respect how much time you've put into the game. I might have to consider apologizing. I'll really have to think about it though." He recognized that his friend viewed things in a way that he didn't, so he told him that he would get back to him later if he felt that he was actually in the wrong. I usually make my decisions right then. I either apologize and change or I tell that person to stop taking things so seriously. Ben just sounds like he needed more time. I absolutely understand that. I still don't believe that it should have ever gotten to this point. As much as I'm hearing, "It's not about the game. It's about trust." I just laugh. It IS about the game. You didn't want him to do something because you believed that it would spoil the game. He did it. You let it damage a friendship. Personally, I have flat out told people that I'm going to run a module. Most of the people that I play with have easy access to it. Do I expect them to not look at it? Of course not. I think that it would be ridiculous to expect that. Besides, I can add in enough of my own stuff that it's not going to be exactly what they think. Plus, there are always dice. It just shouldn't matter.
Also, I don't remember hearing that Ben consistently cheated. If someone consistently cheats AT THE TABLE, that's a different story. That's when you change up things or just tell them to cut the crap.
Also, I am hearing a request for an incinsere apology. People saying that you should just apologize, even if you don't understand why.

"If I was in your position, even if I didn't care either, the first thing I would say is 'I'm sorry', because my pride isn't worth the game, our other friends, or our friendship."

1. This seems like a worthless apology. It's just meant for appeasement without any true sorrow behind it. I've gotten some of these recently. Some kids were suspended for prank calling my class phone with inappropriate messages. 2 of the 3 gave me "I'm sorry." letters. One of them says something along the lines of, "My parents thought that it would be a good idea for me to apologize and so I am. I'll never do it again." That's a worthless apology. The person in this example has some serious problems and his parents are teaching him that apologies don't need to be sincere.
2. He says that he would do this because his pride isn't worth; a. THE GAME, b. our other friends, c. our friendship. Things seem a bit out of order to me. Also, I don't see the ability to just apologize exactly falling under pride. Also (part 2), while not apologizing isn't worth the game, it would appear that warrantless demands ARE worth breaking up a game and friendship. Heck, the guy even said that the other players were fine with just continuing. If my DM were pulling this with someone in the group, I'd be looking around and seeing who else wants to run some. If nobody else was up for it, I'd run it.
The second in command for the Silver Flame is Evil. Darn.

 

[tylermalan]

This conversation, I think, is turning slightly worthless. You continue to make assumptions and you don't believe me about a lot of stuff, it seems like. Almost everything you said doesn't make sense, is an assumption, or isn't true (and most, if not all, of the assumptions are also not true).

All I can say is that you weren't there, you obviously don't understand, and you don't know me or my friend who was involved in this. To simply not believe me when I was there and do understand the situation completely is... ridiculous?

Haha, man, I don't even know where to start. So I won't! Hopefully this conversation turns around.

 

[The Thayan Menace]

Apologia (x3)

I actually see what Ben said as being the equivalent of that statement. "You're right, I definitely respect the money that you've paid for the adventure. I didn't pay anything. And I've DMed before, so I totally know and respect how much time you've put into the game. I might have to consider apologizing. I'll really have to think about it though."

This is sound reasoning, assuming that Ben comes to the correct conclusion (i.e., apologizes for his misconduct and offers to make restitution).

He recognized that his friend viewed things in a way that he didn't ....

We don't know this. Ben might though.

Ben just sounds like he needed more time.

That's definitely possible.

As much as I'm hearing, "It's not about the game. It's about trust." I just laugh. It IS about the game.

Yes, it's about a game that requires a certain level of trust between the participants.

Personally, I have flat out told people that I'm going to run a module. Most of the people that I play with have easy access to it. Do I expect them to not look at it? Of course not. I think that it would be ridiculous to expect that.

How is this different from insider trading or getting advance information on an AP exam?

Also, I don't remember hearing that Ben consistently cheated.

A person who has no compunction about looking up information in modules they are currently playing is implicitly untrustworthy and disrespectful.

If someone consistently cheats AT THE TABLE, that's a different story.

So, it's okay if they cheat away from the table?

People saying that you should just apologize, even if you don't understand why.

It would be best if the culprit understood the gravity of his transgression and made up for it. Otherwise, he's a lost cause ... at least as far as the gaming group is concerned.

-Samir Asad

 

[tylermalan]

It would be best if the culprit understood the gravity of his transgression and made up for it. Otherwise, he's a lost cause ... at least as far as the gaming group is concerned.

-Samir Asad

This I agree with. When you (Engilbrand) said "This seems like a worthless apology. It's just meant for appeasement without any true sorrow behind it," I think you missed the point. The point is that even if he didn't mean it, the fact that he STILL apologized would show me that he at least cares about how I feel. Yes, it might not mean that he is genuinely regretful of his actions, but it DOES mean that he cares about me as a friend, and THAT'S what matters to me concerning this particular transgression.

Does that not make sense to you? If not, is there any other way I can say it, so that it does?