I've got a problem in my game! Help!

[Engilbrand]

1. I haven't actually made any assumptions or not believed you about anything. I'm saying that I don't agree with the way that you handled the situation. On a scale of 1 to 10, you seem to have given it a worth in importance of an 8. I'm calling it a 1. I have no doubt that EVERYTHING that you and Ben have said is true.
2. You're still saying that it's better to just apologize and say the words, even if you don't believe it. I call THAT being disrespectful to someone. That is what I call a worthless apology. It's not about the words, it's about the feelings. A lot of people say, "I love you." As a teacher, I hear 14 year olds say it to each other often. Do I believe that they actually love each other. No. I think that it's one of the problems with our current society. They say things that they don't actually mean. By you saying that saying "I'm sorry." is more important than whether or not he actually is sorry, you're telling me that you don't actually care if he's sorry or not. You just want him to aknowledge that you were right and you want to be vindicated. That's been one of my biggest problem with this since the start. It has nothing to do with not understanding your position. It's that I don't agree with it.
3. I don't consider looking at a D&D book to be cheating unless you are specifically sitting there with a book open and saying, "Ok guys. We're fighting a young adult black dragon. Here's what it says." That, in my book is cheating. Rolling a 1 and calling it a 20 is cheating. Breaking the trust of the group and buying better gear than you are allowed is cheating. Trying "win" at D&D. BUT, I do NOT agree that looking through a module, even if it is one that you are currently playing in, is cheating. If he started bringing in all of the outside information to the game, THAT is when I would have a problem with it. BUT, I would have the same problem with it as someone in a game saying, "That's a Devil, so we need to use blah blah on it." even if their character wouldn't know that. That's what I consider cheating. If Ben didn't do that, I don't believe that he cheated.

 

[tylermalan]

... you're telling me that you don't actually care if he's sorry or not. You just want him to aknowledge that you were right and you want to be vindicated.

Apparently, it doesn't make sense. Since I can't think of another way to say it, I will simply say it again, by copying the text from my previous post and pasting it into this one, and hope that you actually read it this time:

"...it DOES mean that he cares about me as a friend, and THAT'S what matters to me concerning this particular transgression."

He's my friend. I care about him and his feelings even if I don't agree with them. He has obviously not shown me the same courtesy.

When did I say that I don't care if he's actually sorry or not? When did I say that I cared about being 'right'? When did I say that I wanted to be vindicated, and vindicated for what? If you can, please copy and paste from my posts, or list the appropriate posts where I said those things. If you cannot, then I think your point has been made, and you can stop telling me that I've done/said things that I haven't.

However, if you'd like to expound on your point and progress the discussion in some way, I'm all ears.

 

[Nellisir]

3. I don't consider looking at a D&D book to be cheating unless you are specifically sitting there with a book open and saying, "Ok guys. We're fighting a young adult black dragon. Here's what it says." That, in my book is cheating.

I have players that can memorize monster entries and recall them perfectly a week or two later. If they started searching out esoteric monster entries -just- because they were going to fight that monster, how would that be different from sitting at the table with an open book?

BUT, I do NOT agree that looking through a module, even if it is one that you are currently playing in, is cheating. If he started bringing in all of the outside information to the game, THAT is when I would have a problem with it. BUT, I would have the same problem with it as someone in a game saying, "That's a Devil, so we need to use blah blah on it." even if their character wouldn't know that. That's what I consider cheating. If Ben didn't do that, I don't believe that he cheated.

He didn't look at a module. He looked at a thread the DM had started to answer some DM questions and get ideas. He didn't just happen to have that particular thread sitting on his shelf - he went out and found it BECAUSE he was asked not to.

Try this analogy on for size. You're giving your girlfriend a surprise birthday party, except, for some reason, you aren't able to keep it a surprise. So you tell her "something" is going on that day, and please don't look in your desk drawer. So the first thing she does is run to the desk drawer and read the guest list and gift list. Maybe it doesn't "hurt" anything - but it sucks just the same.

Being able to control your impulses and resist temptation is one of the hallmarks of being an adult. If you can't do that, then you should be prepared to be treated like a child, including being excluded from activities that require a modicum of self-control.

I'm still curious to hear exactly -why- he thought it was OK.

 

[billd91]

2. You're still saying that it's better to just apologize and say the words, even if you don't believe it. I call THAT being disrespectful to someone. That is what I call a worthless apology.

If the person makes an apology and doesn't mean what they say, then they're making the wrong apology. Friends should always be able to say "I'm sorry I upset you" and mean it. That's one of the things friendship is about.
And even if you don't you should still say it because friendship also means that you'll do things for someone else just because they're your friend, even if you don't necessarily want to or feel strongly about it. It shows you're putting effort into the relationship, something every friend deserves.

 

[Zaruthustran]

So the culprit is justified because he chose not to abide by a reasonable moral suggestion (i.e., don't cheat)?
-Samir

Frankly: that's right. Until he *acts* on that knowledge, it's not cheating. The guy says that he'll keep player knowledge and character knowledge separate; the OP should give him a chance to do so. It may be even if the player acts on his knowledge, he'll do so in a way to orchestrate a more dramatic/fun outcome.

One paradigm for RPGs is cooperative storytelling. The DM sets the stage and--together with the players--tells a story. If some or all of the players know everything about the module, they can create a richer story. They won't, for example, kill the wrong NPC or ignore a clue and go off in a random direction. Some players like a completely reactive RPG experience, and that's fine too, but some players enjoy having a more informed role in the storytelling. Neither play style is objectively better than the other.

Even if his secret knowledge does grant some sort of advantage, I think the OP should stand back and recognize that the guy's actions aren't some grave sin. So he looked at a thread with some info on the mod; not a big deal. It's a game. If he's really worried about it, he should just tweak the mod so the knowledge isn't a huge advantage and get on with it. Life's too short to burn bridges over such a minor issue.

Seriously: how many D&D players does the OP know? Can the group afford to lose a player, even a player that may know some details about an encounter or two?

-z

EDIT: That'll teach me to read the entire thread before replying. Oh well. Clearly the guy's actions were unforgiveable to the OP. In that case, I support his decision to boot the guy. Ultimately, it's the OP's decision as to how he spends his time--and with whom.

That said, I do encourage him--and the transgressor--to reflect on other play styles. This whole thing could have been avoided if the guy had first contacted the OP and asked to read the thread, and explained how the game would be more fun for him if he were to read it. They might have been able to run the adventure together, one from the DM position, and one subtly guiding from within the ranks of the players.

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

Being able to control your impulses and resist temptation is one of the hallmarks of being an adult. If you can't do that, then you should be prepared to be treated like a child, including being excluded from activities that require a modicum of self-control.

I'm still curious to hear exactly -why- he thought it was OK.

Based on his own comments, I would speculate he is one of those people who believes that he can accurately gauge the "rightness" of his actions while putting absolutely zero consideration into how those actions are likely to be perceived by others.

Being so perfectly self-centered must have taken a lot of practice.

 

[Oryan77]

3. I don't consider looking at a D&D book to be cheating unless you are specifically sitting there with a book open

I would love to test that opinion of yours. You honestly think it's only cheating if they have the book at the table? I don't believe that for a second. You seem like an intelligent person and I don't believe you'd be cool with it. You come off more as someone just disagreeing for the sake of arguing with people. I can read an adventure and remember every little secret in the plotline and use it in your game.

You: "Hey, why are you attacking the Prince...he didn't do anything yet!?!"

Me: "I don't like the cut of his jib & he seems suspicious." (I really know that in chapter 4, the Prince attempts to have the King killed so he can take his place as king)

You: "The road to the cave begins here."

Me: "We should probably travel outside of the road far away just in case there's danger." (I really know that in chapter 2, slave traders travelling with their caravans on the road will try to capture us)

You: "Why do you keep trying to buy a potion of water breathing? You live in the desert and have never even seen large bodies of water big enough to swim in."

Me: "I figure it could come in handy one day, you never know." (I really know that in chapter 10, there's treasure hidden at the bottom of a pool of water in a crypt that we will be exploring)

This could go on & on throughout your entire time DM'ing me. Would you really want to deal with this? You would be ok with me reading the adventures and telling the group that I read the adventure just before the game? That's basically what happened with the OP. Sure, I could say, "I won't use any of the knowledge to my advantage" but then why would I have read it in the first place if I didn't want to have an advantage? It's impossible not to metagame at some point. I see it happen all the time....a player memorizes Protection from Evil every single time he picks a protection spell. Then one session when he plans to fight a Satyr the next day, he suddenly chooses to memorize Protection from Chaos even though he's never encountered a Satyr before. Believing that a player reading my campaign notes and telling me he won't use the info to his advantage is ridiculous....and any DM that believes that has no common sense.

If a player unintentionally has prior knowledge to your adventure because he's read it without realizing you would run it, then it sucks, but you just have to deal with it. In the OP's case, he wouldn't have had to deal with it if the player wasn't being disrespectful. The player just wasted the DM's time and made a crapload more work for him now that he has to tweak everything up. And we're not talking about some published adventure, we're talking about a DM's campaign notes that he actually let his group know he didn't want them to read :\ And the dude can't even apologize for it....haha, yeah, great friend there.

 

[Engilbrand]

When it comes to my "book at the table comment": The focus is on taking knowledge that you have and applying it unfairly. A book open at the table would suffice. So, too, would reading the adventure in a store and then using what you read, much like you put in your example. Even a DM or player who has done the module before. It's about removing what you know from the game.
Tonight, there's a new episode of Smallville. It's brand new. I want to watch it. I went to www.kryptonsite.com and read spoilers about the episode. I now have more of an idea of what's going on in the episode. Does that mean that I'm going to remember every little thing? No. I'll forget quite a bit of it. Will what I know negatively impact how I feel about the show? No.
The problem doesn't happen until the person uses the information that he shouldn't have IN GAME. That's the kicker. I haven't put this out there, but this is what I've been trying to get across the whole time.
What happened: "Please don't go to my thread that is full of spoilers for your campaign."
A lot of people are looking at that as being a major thing. I don't see it as much of a request.
What SHOULD have happened: "I have a thread on EN World. If you come across it, please don't use anything in the game. Play your guy as he should be played."
If he had done that, and Ben would have read the post and acted on the information, THEN I would agree with Tylermalan. Ben would have been a jerk and a lot of the material would have needed to be rewritten. As it stands, though, it's just one more person who knows what's going to happen. It's no different from anyone else who already knows what's going on. Whether the person finds out later or already knew, you count on them to keep it all in character.
The other option, as Zaruthustran stated, would have been to bring him in and let him guide the plot a little.
Other Player: "I attack the kobold that we see."
Paladin: "Hold yourself. It has not attacked us. What do you want?"
Now, the plot can continue because a player didn't do something that would have thrown things off.

For the record, I do know right from wrong. Also, I'm not at all self-centered. The people who know me know that I'm willing to do just about anything for me. When I anger them, I will apologize if I believe that it's warranted. It seems like people see that final part and think that I can't think about anything but myself. If a friend says to me, "I don't like the fact that you spit." (I do, too. I hock loogies some times. Especially outside. That's just how my sinuses react sometimes.) my response was typically, "That's too bad. It's what I do. Is it really worth getting bent out of shape about?" Just so you know, my best female friend in college would tell me that and that was my rebuttal. I am who I am and I'm not going to change for everyone. I like Hawaiian shirts, too. When someone tells me that I shouldn't be wearing one, I ignore them. There are things that I just don't see as an issue.
"What about one of those times where you've been wrong and apologized? We don't hear your throwing any of those out." I teach German. The 3rd year book includes fairy tales. One of the main characters was Kali the Kobold. (D&D!) Now, there was a student on the German trip that I took last year. He's in the third level class. At some point, he was linked to the Kobold. As he didn't SEEM to have a problem with it, and I have a certain relationship with my classes, there were a few days where this came up quite a bit. I was on pretty good terms with him and didn't think that he cared. One day, he came up to me and said, "Did I do something to make you mad?" "No. Why?" "It really seems like you've been picking on me a lot lately. I just wanted to know if there was a reason." In my mind, two things happened: 1. He HAS been picked on a lot lately. Woops. 2. I understand his frustration and I agree that I am at fault. So, I looked at him and said, "You know what, you're right. I'm sorry. I didn't realize that I was doing it and I'll stop." The next day, I reminded my classes that they should talk to me if they feel like I have wronged them in ANY way. When someone brought the Kobold thing up again, I squashed it.

By this point, it seems pretty obvious that I don't believe the same thing that the rest of you do. It would appear that I now have a topic to bring up with my gaming group. It will be interesting to see if I'm just "self-centered" like a few people have tried to say, or if I just happen to game with people who are like me. For the record, our games are a great time and we all get along together. I haven't really seen any "shifty eyes" or "MEMEME" behavior from anyone. Except the CN Rogue...

 

[billd91]

For the record, I do know right from wrong. Also, I'm not at all self-centered.
<snip>
I am who I am and I'm not going to change for everyone. <snip>

My take on this would be if you're not going to change for everyone, then you are self-centered. Now suppose you had a friend who had a painful gag reflex every time you hocked a loogie? Then would you continue to do it around them or would you change your behavior under those circumstances for that friendship? Hocking a loogie if you don't know they're around would be one thing, doing it when you know you're in their presence is another. You can either respect them or not.

I think that's akin to what the OP expected in this case. Knowing that the DM had a particular wish, the player had the choice to either respect it or not. He did not and that was upsetting. It's a betrayal of trust worthy of an apology even if, by his own preferences, he doesn't see a problem with spoilers.

 

[Oryan77]

Tonight, there's a new episode of Smallville. It's brand new. I want to watch it. I went to www.kryptonsite.com and read spoilers about the episode. I now have more of an idea of what's going on in the episode. Will what I know negatively impact how I feel about the show? No.

You're still missing it. You keep using analogies that are similar, but not the same as the OP's situation. You're friend didn't create Smallville for you and your other friends to interact with. A show/book/movie/play is already created and being told to you. Nothing you do can affect the outcome of any scene in that story. D&D is run by both players & the DM. Everyone interacts with it. The DM spends his own money & takes his time to provide "surprising" scenarios to the players not only for your enjoyment, but for his enjoyment to see how you handle them. When the DM creates scenarios and you cheat to gain info about scenarios you shouldn't know about, there's a problem. But this has been hammered again & again and you still use the same type of analogies, so I think you're just refusing to accept it just to be stubborn

I'm not at all self-centered. The people who know me know that I'm willing to do just about anything for me. When I anger them, I will apologize if I believe that it's warranted.

You say that and then follow it up with this....

If a friend says to me, "I don't like the fact that you spit." (I do, too. I hock loogies some times. Especially outside. That's just how my sinuses react sometimes.) my response was typically, "That's too bad. It's what I do. Is it really worth getting bent out of shape about?"

Maybe you should take a look at yourself and really think about if you're being self-centered or not. I don't mean to judge you or anything; your comment just really stood out to me. If that's not being self-centered then I don't know what is. And the fact you have this overall opinion about the OP's situation just reinforces the perception of you being self-centered. Please don't think I'm trying to be insulting, I'm just commenting on what you said.

A person who isn't self-centered would have told their female friend, "Oh sorry, I have this sinus problem and I'm so used to it that I don't think about it being gross. I'll try to be discreat about it." But no, you flat out say you don't give a crap if you're gross haha. So anotherwards, you wouldn't mind coming to my house to eat dinner when I smell like vomit & cow **** because I don't like to shower? It's just what I do....or actually, what I don't do You wouldn't have a problem if I blew snot rockets around you? I mean come on, expecting a person to deal with your gross habit is pretty darn selfish. You weren't the smoothest cat in college with the females were you?