I've introduced my 5th ed group to AD&D 2E

[DarkCrisis]

Kid who plays the fighter told me today he likes that its one save and not multiple saves like in 5th ed because it mean's that your single roll/save means more.

 

[Ralif Redhammer]

That's an interesting observation. I would also add that how long it takes to rest to regain HP further makes the lower HP feel more impactful.

The older kid is playing a Fighter (as he usually does) and he told me he really likes that combat comes down to AC instead of HP. He likes that he can turn the tide of battle in a swing or two of his axe. He feels more “useful.” He likes that it was more deadly. And I agreed, to much HP/healing etc bogs it all down.

0E/BECMI/1e/2e thieves are rough. I don't think I ever played one higher than 7th level before either dying or getting sick of it back in the day.

I will say that the kit system at least helped make a thief that could be somewhat decent at a few things, between the kit bonuses and the equipment in the Complete Thieves' Handbook.

Sure. But the other thing is that all the reflexive responses are just convincing me that the people responding never played nearly as much 1e/2e as I did. I've got probably 2000+ hours of playing 1e/2e as a thief, and the class is only really balanced between about 1200 and 2000 xp when you are second level and get 2HD and other classes are still just 1st level. At practically every other point, you are weaker than every other class. It's this recognition that the thief was useless that lead to all the radical improvements that gave us the 3e Rogue.

I keep thinking about running a throwback 2e campaign. I did a 1e one some years ago, and enjoyed that immensely. I go back and forth on including kits, though. On the one hand, they're a signature element to 2e. On the other, there's a metric ton of them, some of which are terribly balanced.

 

[Celebrim]

AD&D 2e was my introduction to Dungeons & Dragons, so I have some nostalgia for it. My longest campaign (before I became a Killer DM) was in that system. I'm glad to read new players are enjoying it and that it's reinvigorated a passion for DMing in the OP.
I just can't imagine going back to it, personally. Some sort of 2.999 edition would be cool - like if it still had the traditional approach to the game with a little better balanced classes, more unified mechanics, no THAC0, etc.

Several times I have thought about doing a reworking of the NWP system to make it more useful for adjudicating skill challenges, reworking the class balance, cleaning the initiative roll and cleaning up the surprise rule, clean up the rules for when opponents get free attacks on you, fixing monster balance, fixing infravision to produce fewer table arguments, fixing the detect invisibility rules to account for animal senses, reworking THAC0 to be a little more intuitive, and so forth. And I get really excited for a few minutes imagining what this system will be like that retains the feel of 1e/2e but with all the warts removed, and then I realize two things. First, that it's a like 400+ hour project, and secondly that at the end of it you'll be like 90% of the way to 3e anyway. It would be easier to change out the XP system in 3e to make it work more like 1e, have HD caps like 1e, and bring back segments and casting times than it would be to try to turn 1e/2e or a retroclone into something that plays smoothly.

 

[RuinousPowers]

Thieves were always sad in TSR editions of the game, alas. They were mostly playable as a multiclass option.

Definitely one of the things I appreciate about WotC's tenure has been upgrading Rogues to genuinely useful. And I appreciate how some of the OSR games also make them more powerful and useful than TSR did.

I played for quite a while in an OSR Discord server over the last couple of years with a bunch of younger players, including a few teens and some college age. Definitely one of the cool things was seeing how younger folks could also enjoy OSE and older, more stripped-down rules.

Which OSR games have you found that updated Thieves to be more balanced? I've been thinking of running some 2e, and was planning on reinventing the class myself...

 

[James Gasik]

If 2e suffers from anything, it's that what it is, and what people wanted it to be, were never in sync. I know a lot of people who wanted D&D to be a game where they could make any character concept they want and have fun with it. The reality is, though, there are things that work in 2e. And things that work well in 2e. And a lot of things that just...don't.

The Thief is one of those things. Many people believed that being a Thief would make you the lightly armored, artful dodger, cunning rogue. The outlaw, the bad boy. The guy who fights with his wits, not his brawn. You're Raffles or Lupin, Maverick or Han Solo.

The reality is, however, you're not any of these things, or at least, if you are, it's likely not because of your class, but in spite of it. You're almost bottom of the barrel when it comes to weapons and armor. Almost bottom of the barrel when it comes to survivability. Your contribution to combat are slightly better than that of a Wizard without spells, and your primary ability, to facilitate exploration challenges, is unreliable for a few levels. Race and Kits help, but a very high Dexterity score matters more for your abilities than anything else. If you decide to play a Thief with a 15 or even a 16 Dexterity, you're in for a rough time.

Backstab is very conservatively designed, to the point it can be nearly impossible to use unless the DM gives tacit permission. Your abilities should be superior versions of what anyone could do, but they are not treated as such- often, the rules imply no one can attempt things you have abilities for. Despite being somewhat nonsensical (like, seriously, no one else can actively listen in a dungeon?). The ever expanding Non-Weapon Proficiency list actually steps on the toes of the Thief at times- ironic, since you'd think the Thief is the skilled hero, so NWP's should bolster, not detract from your talents. But the sad truth is, you get less NWP's than anyone. Oh sure, you level faster, and so you might not notice it in most campaigns, but you get a new NWP every 4 levels, and everyone else, even Clerics, who are the next fastest class to level, get them every 3.

If you're an old hand, and you understand which ability scores to prioritize, which races give the best features, which weapons have the most utility and are likely the ones most easily acquired, which NWP's are going to see a lot of play (and which ones are a waste of slots), and you understand your role, the game works perfectly fine.

But if you want to play a human warrior with a greatsword who disdains armor, a cunning Halfling swashbuckler who runs into the fray with a rapier in hand, or a Half-Elven Fighter/Cleric/Magic-User who is convinced he's a Red Mage from Final Fantasy, you may be in for some rude awakenings.

It took me a long time to realize that, every time I was making house rules for 2e, I was fighting against the system itself. That my problems weren't that some options didn't work right, but that some concepts ran against the grain of what the game was designed for. A lot of people decry "optimizers" as the enemies of roleplaying and fun, but the fact that the system itself punishes you for "doing it wrong" and only the DM can change that fact, is where it all starts.

You played a happy go lucky Thief with a Charisma of 17, and died to a trap or a random arrow and wonder "what went wrong?". Maybe you ask a friend. Next thing you know, you're a Wood Elf Fighter, specialized in long swords, with ambidexterity and specialization in two-weapon fighting style, making 5/2 attacks per round with a Thac0 of 15 and dealing d8+9 damage at 1st level!

Well now you're effective...but at what cost?

 

[cbwjm]

I don't think thieves were really all that bad in 2e, being able to focus your skill points meant you could get a decent chance right out the gate of a couple of skills. However, I think that I'd probably drop the class altogether a d make their skills into proficiencies like in that Gothic earth version of ravenloft. I'd probably also turn backstab into a proficiency as it is in ACKS. This way, you could just use the fighter and give them thief skills if they feel the need for them.

I guess you could still keep the thief, but make them able to trade in their normal skills for different rogue proficiencies so that they could specialise in different areas, like a master of disguise, a burglar, or the typical adventuring thief.

 

[James Gasik]

I don't think thieves were really all that bad in 2e, being able to focus your skill points meant you could get a decent chance right out the gate of a couple of skills. However, I think that I'd probably drop the class altogether a d make their skills into proficiencies like in that Gothic earth version of ravenloft. I'd probably also turn backstab into a proficiency as it is in ACKS. This way, you could just use the fighter and give them thief skills if they feel the need for them.

I guess you could still keep the thief, but make them able to trade in their normal skills for different rogue proficiencies so that they could specialise in different areas, like a master of disguise, a burglar, or the typical adventuring thief.

That depends on what you think a "decent chance" is. Of your 60 starting discretionary points, you can put 30 in a skill. The base for, say, Find/Remove Traps is 5%, so that raises it to 35%. Barring Kits (I'm not sure which ones grant a bonus to this off-hand), only an 18 Dexterity increases this (by 5%); otherwise, you need to be a Dwarf (+15%), Gnome (+10%), or Halfling (+5%). Just with the PHB, it's impossible to get more than a coin flip at level 1. Which given how frail the Thief is, could very well mean a 50% chance not to die upon encountering a trap.

I'm not particularly keen on those odds myself- best to stick with poking everything with a 10' (or 11') pole for the first few levels.

 

[Mannahnin]

Which OSR games have you found that updated Thieves to be more balanced? I've been thinking of running some 2e, and was planning on reinventing the class myself...

I was thinking of 5 Torches Deep specifically. Lamentations of the Flame Princess also does a pretty good job with their Specialist class.

Other than that, there are also some common house rules I often see used for Thieves. If I'm running B/X or OSE, for example, giving them d6 HD and having all their skills work on the Hear Noise chance (with a +2 for Climb Walls) is a good simple improvement. Plus just giving their abilities the benefit of the doubt instead of being harsh in adjudicating Thief abilities like Gygax sadly recommended in the 1E DMG and as 2E largely also recommended.

 

[Alzrius]

If 2e suffers from anything, it's that what it is, and what people wanted it to be, were never in sync. I know a lot of people who wanted D&D to be a game where they could make any character concept they want and have fun with it. The reality is, though, there are things that work in 2e. And things that work well in 2e. And a lot of things that just...don't.

That's not a 2E thing, it's a D&D thing, regardless of edition.

I told a story a while back about how I was trying to talk a guy I knew, who loved comic books, into giving D&D (5E, which isn't my edition of choice, but which seemed like the easiest access point for a newcomer) a chance. He asked if he could make a character who was just like The Flash. I hesitated, then started to describe how there were certain builds (which I was reasonably certain were out there) which could get him up to more than twice the movement speed of most characters, along with one or two extra attacks per round. He just shook his head and said "That's not even close to what The Flash can do."

And he was right. If you've got a particular inspiration from some other media, including most comics, video games, or anime/manga, then most of the time D&D isn't going to let you play what you want, particularly at 1st level. Heck, just look at the differences between Vancian magic and how magic works in most other media; that one's been a sticking point for decades.

The game is what it is, and there's always going to be a gulf between that and what people want it to be, at least in terms of when they start playing their first character.

 

[MadArkitekt]

How long did it take to explain THACO?