ivisible scrolls

[fl8m]

If i cast improved invisibility then whip out my scroll of Fly so i might escape can i actually read my scroll? I can see both sides to the argument but is there anything official saying you can see yourself if your invisible?

 

[Hypersmurf]

If i cast improved invisibility then whip out my scroll of Fly so i might escape can i actually read my scroll?

If you have See Invisible or True Seeing running, no problem.

If you have Blindsight, no good.

-Hyp.

 

[Iku Rex]

It's a grey area. IMO you can see yourself (and your equipment) when invisible. Invisibility purge says "Those affected by this spell cannot see each other but can see themselves" and I see no reason to treat other invisibility spells differently.

 

[Pax]

Iku, you mean Mass Invisibility, right?

 

[Hypersmurf]

He means Invisibility Sphere.

Mass Invisibility says you can't see other people affected by the spell - it doesn't say you can see yourself.

Invisibility says if you cast it on someone else, you can't see them. It doesn't say if you cast it on yourself, you can see yourself.

The description of Invisibility in the DMG doesn't say you can see yourself.

Invisibility Sphere is the only spell that says you can see yourself.

Since Invisibility is a Glamer, not a Mind-Affecting Spell, it "changes the sensory qualities of the target". It makes you not visible. Unless the spell specifically states otherwise - as in the case of Invisibility Sphere - there's no reason to believe you can see yourself without magical aid.

-Hyp.

 

[Iku Rex]

He means Invisibility Sphere.

Correct. Oops.

Edit:

Invisibility says if you cast it on someone else, you can't see them. It doesn't say if you cast it on yourself, you can see yourself.

It doesn't say that, no, but why would they go out of their way to say that you can't see someone else if you can't see yourself. EndEdit

Since Invisibility is a Glamer, not a Mind-Affecting Spell, it "changes the sensory qualities of the target". It makes you not visible. Unless the spell specifically states otherwise - as in the case of Invisibility Sphere - there's no reason to believe you can see yourself without magical aid.

Invisibility sphere is practically identical to invisibility. They are both Illusion(Glamer) spells. I see no reason why there should be such an important difference between them.

(If you want to go "letter of the rules": "(Harmless): The spell is usually beneficial, not harmful, but a targeted creature can attempt a saving throw if it wishes." and "A successful saving throw against an illusion reveals it to be false, but a figment or phantasm remains as a translucent outline." and "A character [like the spell's caster - Iku Rex] faced with incontrovertible proof that an illusion isn't real needs no saving throw" -- from the SRD, http://www.opengamingfoundation.org/srd/srdmagicoverview.rtf and http://www.opengamingfoundation.org/srd/srdschoolsofmagic.rtf .I suspect that the intent is that if you succeed on a save against invisibility, the spell won't work at all. But strictly speaking that's not what it says. )

 

[Hypersmurf]

"A character [like the spell's caster] faced with incontrovertible proof that an illusion isn't real needs no saving throw".

I suspect that the intent is that if you succeed on a save against invisibility, the spell won't work at all. But strictly speaking that's not what it says. )

That quote refers to illusion spells with "Save: Will disbelief" in the Saving Throw block.

The saving throw against Invisibility, or Silence, or any Glamer, is to prevent the spell coming into effect at all, not to disbelieve it.

If someone casts Invisibility on you, and you don't want to turn invisible, you get a saving throw. If someone casts Silence on you, and you don't want to be silenced, you get a saving throw.

If someone casts Silence in the air around you, you don't get a saving throw to ignore it. It's a glamer, not a figment or phantasm.

-Hyp.

 

[Iku Rex]

That quote refers to illusion spells with "Save: Will disbelief" in the Saving Throw block.

Like I said, that's probably the intent.

Why do you think they felt the need to specify that if you cast the spell on someone else, you can't see them.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Like I said, that's probably the intent.

No probably about it.

From the FAQ:

Older editions of the game listed the silence spell in the
Alteration school, but now silence is part of the Illusion
school. Does this mean that anyone in the area of effect can
try to disbelieve the spell, negating most of its effect for
enemy spellcasters?
No, if you could disbelieve a silence spell, its save listing
would be “Will disbelief.” Silence removes all noise in its area
and nobody gets a save against that. If the spell is actually
targeted on a creature or on a creature’s equipment, that
creature gets a Will save to negate the spell. If the save
succeeds, the spell fails and the area is not silenced.

Why do you think they felt the need to specify that if you cast the spell on someone else, you can't see them.

Perhaps it was a question that came up a lot in playtesting

By my reading, though, Invisibility Sphere is the only spell in the PHB that makes you invisible to everyone except yourself.

Invisibility says that the creature or object touched vanishes from sight. It doesn't say "vanishes from the sight of everyone except the creature or object touched".

-Hyp.