D&D 4E JamesonCourage's First 4e Session

[JamesonCourage]

So, out of curiosity, which white dragon is the best designed for a mid-Heroic tier party? Level isn't a huge issue; I can adjust that easily enough. I'm just wondering: which dragon is the best designed to challenge a party in a lair that favors the white dragon?

 

[n00bdragon]

Without having the books on me at the moment I'm inclined to point you towards the Monster Manual 3 or the Monster Vault. If it's a question of age group then that really is more of a level question. Pick an appropriate age group and scale up or down a little to taste.

 

[Quickleaf]

So, out of curiosity, which white dragon is the best designed for a mid-Heroic tier party? Level isn't a huge issue; I can adjust that easily enough. I'm just wondering: which dragon is the best designed to challenge a party in a lair that favors the white dragon?

Young White Dragon (level 3 solo brute) MV

If you're willing to design your own monster, then I would highly recommend the Worldbreaker concept (by Quinn Murphy): http://at-will.omnivangelist.net/2010/04/1511/ He has a level 3 white dragon with some very thematic powers that make it a good challenge for a party.

 

[Manbearcat]

So, out of curiosity, which white dragon is the best designed for a mid-Heroic tier party? Level isn't a huge issue; I can adjust that easily enough. I'm just wondering: which dragon is the best designed to challenge a party in a lair that favors the white dragon?

Which white dragon or do you mean which dragon? If you want a white for mid-Heroic then you should be fine with the Level 3 one in the compendium and just level it up as you need. He plays to his thematic keynotes. Animalistic ferocity. Not too bright but who cares when you can solve all problems with pointy teeth and claws. Hard. In the face. Directly. Trample prey and eat them. Cold attacks including breath weapon. Lots of HPs and damage. Fights more fiercely when bloodied/in a corner. Flies and walks naturally on ice. Put him in a lair with clumps of snow inter-spliced with sheets of ice, frozen stalactites, some stalactites that have dripped down and formed natural ice pillars (for blocking terrain that can be smashed by the dragon to create difficult terrain and fragment into Blasts) maybe a pool heated by a volcanic vent (keeping it in liquid form) that is access/egress to/from lair and you're good to go!

If you're feeling feisty you could give him a disgusting boneyard at one end where he tosses his remnants after meals. The PCs could topple that as a limited use action and damage/immobilize him as a pointy bit snares a wing or some such.

 

[Scrivener of Doom]

The young white dragon from the Monster Vault is probably your best bet.

Like all white dragons, it has ice walk and it's the ice that is most likely to give it a homeground advantage. You could have a terrain effect making the ice have the following effects (this is just brainstorming: there's not a lot of thought behind these) on those without ice walk:

- moderate DC Acrobatics check or fall prone when you move 2 or more squares on your turn, are subjected to 2 or more squares of forced movement;
- when hit by a melee attack, moderate DC Athletics check or slide 2 squares and fall prone.

To tempt the PCs to move, you could rule that a PC that does not move 2 or more squares by the end of its turn gains vulnerable 5 cold until the end of its next turn (moderate DC Endurance check to ignore). After all, you always want to keep moving in a cold environment, right?

On a more positive note, you might allow a high DC Acrobatics check to do a sliding charge allowing the charging attacker to add +2 to its speed for the movement portion of the charge attack - but requiring a minimum of 4 squares of movement - and, on a hit, the attacker gains a +5 bonus to damage. However, on a miss the attacker falls prone. Or something like that. The point is, the ice should also be useful to a clever party with some good skill checks.

And, at the risk of trying to steal from a hack writer, there have to be icy stalactites that can be made to fall and impale a target. The dragon should be able to use these, as should the PCs.

BTW, in typing this reply I just realised how much fun an icy lair of a white dragon could be in 4E. I need to find a way to do this IMC.

Edit: I typed this before I saw [MENTION=6696971]Manbearcat[/MENTION]'s response. Sorry for any overlap in ideas. (And I'm going to steal some of his. )

 

[Jhaelen]

I think that it's possible that he simply doesn't like losing, or getting close to it. I've seen him tense up during the harder combats, but that's normal enough.

Not having been there and not knowing the player, my impression is a similar one: I think he doesn't like that a challenge can be failed by something as mundane as a couple of skill checks, and there's too little choice involved. He's probably more okay with combat encounters, since there's more tactical decisions to be made, so it's not just about the die rolls. Since you already provide options to negate failed skill-checks I don't know what else might make them more palatable for him.

Personally, I prefer hidden skill challenges and I think that might work better for that player, however, it could also backfire, if the player realizes he's 'been tricked' into a skill challenge.

 

[JamesonCourage]

Without having the books on me at the moment I'm inclined to point you towards the Monster Manual 3 or the Monster Vault. If it's a question of age group then that really is more of a level question. Pick an appropriate age group and scale up or down a little to taste.

Thanks for the suggestion, I'll look into these sources

Young White Dragon (level 3 solo brute) MV

Good to know. Thanks.

If you're willing to design your own monster, then I would highly recommend the Worldbreaker concept (by Quinn Murphy): http://at-will.omnivangelist.net/2010/04/1511/ He has a level 3 white dragon with some very thematic powers that make it a good challenge for a party.

Thus far, the PCs have reached level 4, and I have used exactly 1 pre-made monster, and have designed the rest. I'm not just willing to, but I quite enjoy it. I'm a little iffy on any "staged" monster at the moment (as I think my player that dislikes skill challenges may dislike the forced narrative structure, which a "staged" monster would follow as well), but I'll still look it over to steal ideas. Thanks for the link

Which white dragon or do you mean which dragon? If you want a white for mid-Heroic then you should be fine with the Level 3 one in the compendium and just level it up as you need. He plays to his thematic keynotes. Animalistic ferocity. Not too bright but who cares when you can solve all problems with pointy teeth and claws. Hard. In the face. Directly. Trample prey and eat them. Cold attacks including breath weapon. Lots of HPs and damage. Fights more fiercely when bloodied/in a corner. Flies and walks naturally on ice.

That hits a lot of what I want. I think this particular white dragon might be smarter than what's described here, but while she might be smarter, I do want her nature to be along the same lines (animalistic, violent, etc.).

Put him in a lair with clumps of snow inter-spliced with sheets of ice, frozen stalactites, some stalactites that have dripped down and formed natural ice pillars (for blocking terrain that can be smashed by the dragon to create difficult terrain and fragment into Blasts) maybe a pool heated by a volcanic vent (keeping it in liquid form) that is access/egress to/from lair and you're good to go!

Some great ideas for lair features, thanks! Between this and the combat with Yone (the Winter Elemental Spirit) when she's using her Winter Shard, I think that there are likely some memorable combats ahead.

If you're feeling feisty you could give him a disgusting boneyard at one end where he tosses his remnants after meals. The PCs could topple that as a limited use action and damage/immobilize him as a pointy bit snares a wing or some such.

My players have been a little hesitant to use the terrain in combat (though they seem to have no problems with it in skill challenges), so I might start deliberately placing some stuff like this around, and then pointing it out to certain PCs (perhaps based on Balesir's "passive Knowledge" idea presented in my first thread). Thanks for the suggestions.

 

[JamesonCourage]

The young white dragon from the Monster Vault is probably your best bet.

That seems to be a good starting point.

Like all white dragons, it has ice walk and it's the ice that is most likely to give it a homeground advantage. You could have a terrain effect making the ice have the following effects (this is just brainstorming: there's not a lot of thought behind these) on those without ice walk:

- moderate DC Acrobatics check or fall prone when you move 2 or more squares on your turn, are subjected to 2 or more squares of forced movement;

I've already brought up something similar (Acrobatics to cross ice quickly, but you risk falling prone... and yes, it was a Moderate DC), so I'll likely use it again.

- when hit by a melee attack, moderate DC Athletics check or slide 2 squares and fall prone.

... however, this is pretty interesting. It favors the dwarf Fighter a bit, but that's not a bad thing. It might be a bit too fiddly, but I'll think about it.

To tempt the PCs to move, you could rule that a PC that does not move 2 or more squares by the end of its turn gains vulnerable 5 cold until the end of its next turn (moderate DC Endurance check to ignore). After all, you always want to keep moving in a cold environment, right?

And the dragon could have rigged it through some sort of magic, ritual, treatment, or, most likely, utilizing Yone (Winter Spirit Guardian) and her Winter Shard, etc. I really like this one, actually. Good idea

On a more positive note, you might allow a high DC Acrobatics check to do a sliding charge allowing the charging attacker to add +2 to its speed for the movement portion of the charge attack - but requiring a minimum of 4 squares of movement - and, on a hit, the attacker gains a +5 bonus to damage. However, on a miss the attacker falls prone. Or something like that. The point is, the ice should also be useful to a clever party with some good skill checks.

I also like this -especially the extra movement on a charge. It'll work really well with the dragon moving around with its ice walk / wings, too. Another good idea

And, at the risk of trying to steal from a hack writer, there have to be icy stalactites that can be made to fall and impale a target. The dragon should be able to use these, as should the PCs.

Yep, I've used stalactites in an icy cavern in my first session, and the players used them during a skill challenge by making them fall on something. And, as the first session is now being tied in to this particular white dragon, I think that bringing the stalactites back is going to feel perfectly fine. I'll definitely try to have the white dragon use them.

BTW, in typing this reply I just realised how much fun an icy lair of a white dragon could be in 4E. I need to find a way to do this IMC.

I wanted to use them from session 1, so I definitely agree. Just had to set stuff up and tie it all together. I doubt we'll resolve the white dragon combat over the next couple sessions, but you never know, and I'd like to be prepared. If you do one, I'm interested to hear how it goes.

Edit: I typed this before I saw @Manbearcat's response. Sorry for any overlap in ideas. (And I'm going to steal some of his. )

You both had great input. Thanks for the reply

 

[JamesonCourage]

Not having been there and not knowing the player, my impression is a similar one: I think he doesn't like that a challenge can be failed by something as mundane as a couple of skill checks, and there's too little choice involved.

Yeah, I really hope this isn't it, but I am afraid it might be. There's not much I can do about it; the players -including this one- are good about using skills in the context of each skill challenge, but if it just feels limiting to him, I'm at a loss as to what to do to make it better for him.

He's probably more okay with combat encounters, since there's more tactical decisions to be made, so it's not just about the die rolls. Since you already provide options to negate failed skill-checks I don't know what else might make them more palatable for him.

He seems to like combat, like his character concept, like the RP we've engaged in, like talking to other players, etc. I really do wish I could make the skill challenges more palatable, but if it's a challenge thing, I'm not sure how to go about it more than I have.

Personally, I prefer hidden skill challenges and I think that might work better for that player, however, it could also backfire, if the player realizes he's 'been tricked' into a skill challenge.

I think he's smart enough to pick up on it if I don't handle it really well, but I agree that it might work better if I do handle it well. I'm considering trying it. I am used to running them openly (both in my 4e sessions so far, as well as with my normal group and my RPG), though, so that might make it harder for me. It also precludes them from using things like advantages to negate failures, add extra successes, etc. And it'd make working in initiative order harder. And it might mean that the other players, who have less of a problem with skill challenges, might lose out on something they enjoy, too (the Fighter player explicitly likes them).

Not an easy situation for me to resolve, unfortunately. But, play style issues never are, I guess. I'll try to get to the bottom of it, though, and bring more information back to this thread if I feel like I could use more useful advice. Thanks for the feedback.

 

[Manbearcat]

Alternatively, you could go with the Young Blizzard Dragon of MM3 (level 7) if you want to hold off for a few levels or just down-level it. This dragon is a Controller rather than a brute and plays the part well with a lot of forced movement, debilitating status effects (immobilized and blinded) and an interactive Minor Action feature that looks to be a ton of fun in play (GM-side). Lots of ability to bring the environment in play with this Dragon. If you do go with this Elite Controller dragon, I would recommend a Hobgoblin (cold subtype) vanguard (minion or standard soldiers) or some manner of thralls that protect and venerate the dragon. Getting to the dragon could be the exploration of a long abandoned Frost Giant ice complex of which the hobgoblins have taken up residence in (and the dragon has made lair of).