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D&D 5E Jeremy Crawford Discusses Details on Custom Origins

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
It's an exception that has nothing to do with the rules changes being discussed. The chosen class has nothing to do with a surface dwelling drow being an exception.

Is it an exception to drow culture? Yes. Is it relevant to the discussion of assigning ability bonuses wherever you please? I don't think so.
We're discussing playing against racial type being possible without mechanics. The happy go lucky dwarf, etc., as another way than mechanics to play against type.

If you think that playing against type in a different way than mechanics isn't relevant in a discussion that involves playing against type in different ways than mechanics, then I'm going to disagree.
 

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Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
Supporter
At some point, arguing about fictional races is cerebral masturbation of the highest degree. Even downright racist to the ethnicity you are comparing the fantasy race to.

Mod Note:

"People who complain about racism are themselves masturbating racists," is NOT acceptable. You are done in this thread.
 

tetrasodium

Legend
Supporter
Epic
How is playing against type not playing against type? That they will be playing dangerously against type just means that there will generally be few drow played. I think it does apply. It's just a lot more blatant than other classes. Also, I've played more than one drow over the years that wasn't against type. Depends on the campaign.
It's not playing against type in the scope of what the TCoE additions allow. On top of that there is nothing about the drow or any other race on a mechanical level that pigeonholes them to being good or evil. Alignment & relative morality in 5e is just a poorly adapted bolt on left a quarter step from the vestigial remnants of absolute morality.
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
It's not playing against type in the scope of what the TCoE additions allow. On top of that there is nothing about the drow or any other race on a mechanical level that pigeonholes them to being good or evil. Alignment & relative morality in 5e is just a poorly adapted bolt on left a quarter step from the vestigial remnants of absolute morality.
Drow as a race/subrace are almost universally evil. Playing non-evil is playing against type. End of story. They don't have to be pigeonholed into being evil for that to be true.
 

tetrasodium

Legend
Supporter
Epic
Drow as a race/subrace are almost universally evil in certain settings. Playing non-evil is playing against type. End of story. They don't have to be pigeonholed into being evil for that to be true.
Fixed that for you. There is also the critical two components about how there is nothing mechanical involved in a PC being one alignment or another beyond just picking that alignment and the fact that alignment is not within the scope of the changes TCoE includes to allow playing outside of a race's type in ways that are otherwise mechanically discouraged that are being discussed.
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
Fixed that for you. There is also the critical two components about how there is nothing mechanical involved in a PC being one alignment or another beyond just picking that alignment and the fact that alignment is not within the scope of the changes TCoE includes to allow playing outside of a race's type in ways that are otherwise mechanically discouraged that are being discussed.
Don't fix my posts. If you want to refute something I said, do it in your response. What official setting has Drow as primarily non-evil? Eberron?
 

Don't fix my posts. If you want to refute something I said, do it in your response. What official setting has Drow as primarily non-evil? Eberron?
Yes, Eberron. And of course homebrewing settings is very popular, so I wouldn't be surprised if in practice playing in worlds where the Drow are not lame cartoon villains would be rather common.
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
Yes, Eberron. And of course homebrewing settings is very popular, so I wouldn't be surprised if in practice playing in worlds where the Drow are not lame cartoon villains would be rather common.
Okay. I've never played Eberron so that was a guess. :p

That said, it doesn't really prove anything other than specific beats general and exceptions can be made to a general rule. If you look in the MM(I'm assuming that they are here. At work and can't check) and PHB, Drow are evil meanies and being a good one goes against type. That's the default.
 

tetrasodium

Legend
Supporter
Epic
Don't fix my posts. If you want to refute something I said, do it in your response. What official setting has Drow as primarily non-evil? Eberron?
The lore baselines of the FR & Greyhawk twins don't apply to every setting despite FR fansuggest otherwise & the various core books being too setting specific to admit it. The claim was so badly wrong that it didn't deserve more than an editor's note type correcyion. Here are a few examples...
1605029578600.png

1605029784331.png
1605029981998.png

and of course Keith Baker goes into a lot of detail here
Depending on the edition & domain, ravenloft is all over the map, but they certainly didn't start that way...
1605030898278.png

1605030924334.png

There may be others as well, but don't forget all the homebrew settings where a lame cartoon villain caricaturized society of scantily clad dominatrix types running on backstabbing deceit & plot armor are a poor fit.
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
The lore baselines of the FR & Greyhawk twins don't apply to every setting despite FR fansuggest otherwise & the various core books being too setting specific to admit it. The claim was so badly wrong that it didn't deserve more than an editor's note type correcyion. Here are a few examples...
View attachment 128347
and of course Keith Baker goes into a lot of detail here
Depending on the edition & domain, ravenloft is all over the map, but they certainly didn't start that way...
View attachment 128348
View attachment 128349

There may be others as well, but don't forget all the homebrew settings where a lame cartoon villain caricaturized society of scantily clad dominatrix types running on backstabbing deceit & plot armor are a poor fit.
So your proof of how the default core rules are wrong consists of Ravnica, which doesn't have drow. Their "dark elves" are not Drow. Ravenloft, which does have Drow, but you didn't link it. You linked non-drow elves instead. Look up the realm of Arak for where the real Drow live. People don't generally survive encountering the real Drow. And Eberron, which makes an exception to the core default that Drow are evil.

That's very unconvincing. The default is that Drow are evil and the one exception, Eberron, does not invalidate that default.
 

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