D&D 5E Jeremy Crawford Discusses Details on Custom Origins

[doctorbadwolf]

There is always a why... It is the difficult question to answer. And also the hardest to collect data for.

What if the reason champion was the most common class was because it was first on the drop down menu? Would that matter? I guess, in your eyes, no. Because to you it is "ridiculous nonsense."

Fair enough. You see what you see. I see the same, but need to know the why before understanding or using it as evidence.

The idea that there is any likelihood at all that soemthing as ridiculous as “it’s first in a drop down menu” is the reason is just...absurd. You’re reaching for reasons to doubt the simplest explanation because you don’t like it.

 

[Chaosmancer]

Because the only thing they share is their race. They have different point of view and evolution path. Mountain dwarves are more haugty and warlike than the hill dwarves. Thus their respective stats bonuses.

Where does it say that in the PHB?

I mean, I guess it doesn't matter. You have combined evolution and their war-like and haughty nature, which is completely insane to combine evolution and cultural attitude together.

So, I guess we need to decide. Is it cultural or Genetic? Which direction are these stats coming from?

It would be quite a race don't you think? This is how the system had been since the beginning. I see no need to change that.

And yet, my point wasn't about changing it, my point was showing the disconnect on why combining this with body type is a poor example.

A gnome is also a magical race. Magic can explain as much if not more than genetics.

So are dozens of other races.

So now the stats come from culture, genetics, body type and magic?

And with all of those sources we can't possibly justify moving them from one attribute to another? I mean, seriously?

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100% agree with you. It will increase the likelihood of more combinations. And diversity in roles has the ability to alter lore. That is one of the worrisome contributions. I get it, lore changes as do race/class combinations. But because it does, does not prevent people from worrying where those changes will lead.

See, but not really.

Because NPCs having a 15 or 14 in their stats doesn't matter. I mean the Guard statblock is strength based with a 13. For a player character it is a big deal, but not for NPCs. So they have complete access to all classes anyways.

These things never really matter for NPCs, just for the players.

Ok. My bad. Sorry.

No problem, it gets confusing

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They are not built like Mountain Dwarves. Mountain Dwarves are much stronger. Mountain Dwarf muscles are probably denser or something.

Or something.... So, we really don't have any idea why they are stronger, but it is clearly key to their identity and would ruin them as a race if it were removed.

They don't have the same culture. They are not Hill Dwarves. They are Mountain Dwarves.

Then you could tell me where in the PHB or Mordenkainen's that is makes a distinctive difference between the two? What exactly are the cultural differences between them and how does that reflect on one to give them +2 Strength and one to give them +1 Wisdom?

 

[Don Durito]

It's interesting that subraces (from a rules perspective) are pretty much made redundant by this added flexibility. (Really if they don't give ability bonuses it would probably make a lot of sense to fold them into backgrounds in some way).

Which in itself is not a bad thing. It's not like we have different ability bonuses for different types of humans, so it was always somewhat silly to do it for non-humans.

It's also good for DMs to not have to include every sub race on top of all the races in their homebrew settings if they want the players to have all the options.

It does somewhat highlight though, just how much this lack of flexibility was built into the rules from the start.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

Reading the arguments here, I am now a believer in putting stats as you like.

 

[GreenTengu]

All the fretting about small races with 20 strength is amusing. Do the people complaining about that have access to a different D&D 5E than me?

Who would even bother making such a character? Strength is never worth taking in this edition unless you are using a 2-handed martial weapon. Otherwise? Always go Dex.

Dexterity is THE initiative stat. It is the primary defensive stat (ac and most frequent save), it is THE stat for ranged combat and works just as well for melee combat as strength. Dexterity also has the best combat skill attached to it-- stealth.

You have to pump your Dex to max to be a good Rogue or Monk, there is no substitute. But Dex freely substitutes in for Str if you are a Fighter, it is in fact the superior build, and the extra bonuses that come with it probably make it the better choice for Paladin too. And while I haven't seen a Dex-based Barbarian, I suspect getting to utilize stealth and acrobatics and getting better Dex saves probably means it, at worst, breaks even.

Seriously-- the DM could houserule combining Strength and Constitution into one stat and characters would still be better off boosting Dexterity.

So who is going to take strength (or Con) on their character if they can take Dexterity instead?

And finally-- do you know what effect being "small" has? I bet you are thinking it boosts or AC or helps you to hide or improves escape artist or-- no.

It just means you can't use two-handed martial weapons. You know-- the only weapon option that requires one to use Strength instead of Dex and thus the only reason to bother putting a single point into Strength in the entire edition. And that supposed 20 Strength Halfling or Gnome can't even use them anyway. (Oh, they also do crappier in grapple checks, but no one uses those anyway.)

So why all the fuss about a build no one is going to take rather than all the Dex 20 Dwarfs, Orcs and Tieflings that will now come flooding in?

I suspect we will be seeing way more parties where not only does no one have an Intelligence higher than 10, no one will have a Strength higher than 10 either. All characters, regardless of race or class, will be max dex and max cha.

 

[Maxperson]

Then you could tell me where in the PHB or Mordenkainen's that is makes a distinctive difference between the two? What exactly are the cultural differences between them and how does that reflect on one to give them +2 Strength and one to give them +1 Wisdom?

Mordenkainen's page 71 details some of the cultural differences between the two. Some of those could explain the differences.

 

[Helldritch]

Where does it say that in the PHB?

Tradition, remember? If you have no idea of what a dwarf has been from previous edition and the lore. I can't help you.

I mean, I guess it doesn't matter. You have combined evolution and their war-like and haughty nature, which is completely insane to combine evolution and cultural attitude together.

So, I guess we need to decide. Is it cultural or Genetic? Which direction are these stats coming from?

IF that is how you want it... It's been that way for 50 years.

And yet, my point wasn't about changing it, my point was showing the disconnect on why combining this with body type is a poor example.

Point failed. Pushing something to the absurd does not make it unvalid when used with restrain and logic. The racial stats always worked so far.

So are dozens of other races.

So now the stats come from culture, genetics, body type and magic?

And with all of those sources we can't possibly justify moving them from one attribute to another? I mean, seriously?

Again, that is the system that has been in use for 50 years. ASI, it varied a bit over time as to which races and had how many but overall it had remained fairly constant and helped out establish both lore and the mechanics of many races.
And to your question: Yes, seriously. The +2 should remain static to a race. The +1 I'd agree that you could move around (note the conditional there). But having it static is even better. Way better in POV.

Then you could tell me where in the PHB or Mordenkainen's that is makes a distinctive difference between the two? What exactly are the cultural differences between them and how does that reflect on one to give them +2 Strength and one to give them +1 Wisdom?

Can't you read? Go ahead, it is a good read. But so would be the Dwarven supplement of the FR.

 

[Weiley31]

I am aware of what they are now, but I remember that in 4e they used to be descendants of humans who got caught in the Shadowfell.

Ya I always liked that better. I always had it where the human servants of the Raven Queen mingled with the Fey inhabitants of the Shadowfell and their descendants ended up becoming the Shadar-Kai of 4E.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

In some ways, what would bother me most is the idea of a Goliath with an 8 Strength. That seems somewhat silly. Of course a Goliath with a 10 Strength is not really that much better, so it's a small difference. (Especially as I don't buy the perception I sometimes see around here that the difference between 10 and 8 is some huge gulf that is somehow bigger than the gaps between all the other numbers.)

For setting purposes I would prefer someting like Goliaths have a minimum Strength of 15. Of course in a Point Buy system that would just reinforce that they have to be Strength based Classes. I don't want that. I'm happy for them to be Wizards, I just want them to be big strong wizards.

All of which I think highlights the real problem - point buy is actually a really bad way of generating D&D characters. It only looks good in alternative to random rolling.

This is (part of) why I prefer 13th Age' s method, which I believe was mentioned earlier. That is, race gives you one of two options to get a bonus from...and so does class, and you cannot take the same bonus twice. So, for example, Paladin gives +2 Str or +2 Cha, while Wizard gives +2 Int or +2 Wis. If I play a Dragonborn Dragonic/Dragonspawn with each class, my options are:
Dragonic Paladin: Str/Cha only
Dragonic Wizard: Int/Str, Int/Cha, Wis/Str, Wis/Cha.
The Paladin doesn't really get a choice because taking one bonus locks in the other. The Wizard has four choices, though realistically you'd always take Int. But you now totally can be a Dragonic Wizard who is just as good at Wizarding as his High Elf colleagues, but who may be either equally charismatic to them (dragons are prideful and preening), or be more athletic instead.

This seems to strike the balance between those who want there to be physiological differences between one species and another, and those who want fair and equal access. Since every Wizard can choose to be Intelligent and every Rogue can choose to be Dexterous (but neither has to do so unless the "origin" options are identical to the class's options), it would seem we get the best of both worlds. You can still have some idea of what a being is like, by knowing its origin. But you can't know for sure what they will be good at--because anyone can put in the work to be a good <class> if they want to. Ironically, the only "losers" in this are those who ARE "perfectly" playing to type (like the Dragonic Paladin), as they get less diversity...but since their stats theoretically make them slot super well into their class, it seems like not too big a deal.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

Yesterday O looked into heroes of the fallen lands 4e essentials races.
You could take them and put them into 4e easily. Yes they have stat bonuses. But the racial encounter power is so elegant.
Human: +4 to a single save or attack role.
Elf: reroll a single attack roll you don't like
Dwarf: use second wind as bonus action
Halfling: have someone reroll against you.
Easily useful for all classes. Still making them distinguishable from each other. Enforcing their traditional roles. Dwarves are tough. Elves precise. Halflings nimble. Humans good at everything. (they had a lower stat bonus).
So maybe just take away all bonuses, increase base point buy stats and give all characters one racial feat from xanathars.
Or just allow replacing +2 stat bonuses by a xanathar's guide racial feat which emulates the aforementioned encounter powers. At level 4 you are back to normal or you can go a different route.