Jim Ward still doesnt get it.

[pogre]

Monty Haul

I admit Ward's article made me remember with fondness one of my 1st dungeons where a purple worm's lair was next to a bunch of Kobolds. Why wasn't the worm eating the kobolds? - I don't know. But it provided for a lot of fun.

My older players cringe at words like dungeon ecology and realism. It really is a matter of style. I much prefer the 3E style of fairly balanced encounters these days (even with "dungeon ecology"), but more power to those cranking out the Monty Haul campaign.

BTW - I think younger players love a Monty Haul style campaign and it's a great way to get them going.

As to FFE's products - I have no comment, because I have not bought any of them.

 

[Mulkhoran]

These "special abilities" are powerful, but not Monty Haul.

I've played Monty Haul games over twenty years ago. A Monty Haul game is when you sit down at the table, everyone is between 1st and 5th level, and half the people at the table have Artifacts out of the DMG (or artifacts that are more powerful than anything in the DMG).

Ok, you know as well as I do that this is completely pointless. Arguing "You think THAT'S bad? Well look at THIS!!" will just lead to ever-increasing one-upsmanship that serves no point.

There was an example in an old Dragon mag of Saints, and what they did to become saints. One of them defeated something like 3 greater devils at 1st level. My point is, arguing over semantic differences in what constitutes "Monty Haul" is useless.

For the record, I agree that the abilities are neat, and are along the lines of things I've done in my game. However............

But, I agree, that while special abilities are fine, there should be some balance. i.e. The character that receives the +3 str or the innate sorceror abilities now counts as ECL +1 or ECL +2. From a party perspective, the best way to balance special abilities is to make sure everyone gets one.

Tom

Well..................yeah.

That's my point. There's NO such suggestion, or even intimation in the module. There's no guidance for applying these at all. In this particular case, the product is a module.

What good is buying a pre-packaged adventure if the level of adjustment that you have to apply to it is so extreme you might as well have written the adventure yourself?




Aside from whining about FFE's products , I guess I'd be what most people here call "Monty Haul". I think the listing of treasure for a 1st level party posted earlier is silly, but I think the description that followed it of a 3rd level party with 2 masterwork items and 2000 gold to their name represents an equally extreme viewpoint. My PCs usually have at least passable magic by that level, a +1 weapon or two, and some disposable magic available.

I agree there are 2 concurrent discussions going on here, and I'd just like to clarify that my problem is not with anybody's style of play, just in getting value for my money when buying products, with a reasonable minimum expectation of certain quality.

Barring that, I think books should explicitly *state* that they suck on the outside, enforced by law and punishable by death.




- Mike

 

[Mulkhoran]

Nope. That's not the case, at least for me. I detest poorly designed and balanced RPG materials, especially if I spent money on them myself.

*snort*

How the hell am I supposed to maintain a proper pointless, inflammatory argument if you AGREE???????????

I swear, some people.............

 

[Fenes 2]

Aside from whining about FFE's products , I guess I'd be what most people here call "Monty Haul". I think the listing of treasure for a 1st level party posted earlier is silly, but I think the description that followed it of a 3rd level party with 2 masterwork items and 2000 gold to their name represents an equally extreme viewpoint. My PCs usually have at least passable magic by that level, a +1 weapon or two, and some disposable magic available.

- Mike

You think that is extreme? Try a level-9 party with about the same amount of treasure.

(Sorry, had to do it... )

 

[JacktheRabbit]

Actually he is telling us his style of play is superior and more fun than "Conservative" gaming. Also he is suggesting that Monty Haul is a proper game style for 3E as proven (from his point of view) by the ELH.

AFAIC, aside from this discussion turning into a mild rant, Mr. Ward is not telling us his style of gameplay is superior, only that you should not be so quick to dismiss it. Keep an open mind. Don't knock it till you try it. If you don't like it then you don't like it.

If you want, help promote other styles of gameplay like your favorite, but at all cost do not take the low road and bash others for their preferences.

 

[Tyler Do'Urden]

Actually he is telling us his style of play is superior and more fun than "Conservative" gaming. Also he is suggesting that Monty Haul is a proper game style for 3E as proven (from his point of view) by the ELH.

So are you implying that Monty Haul is not a proper game style for 3e, and that the Epic Level Handbook does not prove that it is?

 

[JacktheRabbit]

Monty Haul is a possible gaming style and nothing more than that. It is most certainly not the style of game suggested by any WOTC product including ELH.

So are you implying that Monty Haul is not a proper game style for 3e, and that the Epic Level Handbook does not prove that it is?

 

[Leopold]

Monty Haul is a possible gaming style and nothing more than that. It is most certainly not the style of game suggested by any WOTC product including ELH.

very true..I DM'd a monty haul game, basically opened up the Magical Encyclopedias for 12 PC's, gave them a cash $$$ allotement and said "Goto town". Then they faced G1's dining hall. It was a slaughterfest, the paladin had that chainsaw greatsword, the ragner had a giant slaying bow, spells were tossed out and scrolls were burnt withtout regard to whatever may come may come. It was walking death. I managed to kill 1 out of 12 PC's but that was after they drove off all of them or kill all the giants.

In the end I learned 2 things:

1. Monty haulish games can be fun when used appropriately.
2. As long as the players had fun it matters not one whit what you call the playing style.

 

[jmucchiello]

But, I agree, that while special abilities are fine, there should be some balance. i.e. The character that receives the +3 str or the innate sorceror abilities now counts as ECL +1 or ECL +2. From a party perspective, the best way to balance special abilities is to make sure everyone gets one.

Why? How do you know that the character who get the +3 str doesn't have a lower average set of scores than the other party members. Not everyone uses point-buy. Some still roll dice and this can create some characters who are more or less powerful right from the start. So get this random bonus doesn't effect the character's ECL at all.