Jon Tweet - Magic Item Creation

[Turjan]

This thread should be moved to the Rules Forum. Regarding the tone of the discussion, it would feel right at home there.

I like the column. Yes, the item creation rules work. No, I don't particularly like them, because they are clunky.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

So, your arguement against the crafting rules now suddenly only applies to low level item makers. Moving the goalposts are we?

When everyone is arguing that the rules are fine, because characters in the double-digits have no problems with them, it's worth pointing out that most play takes place at lower levels.

Any rule can be shown to be fine if we define the circumstance that it's OK in sufficiently narrowly. But the rules don't just apply to left-handed red-headed feytouched archivists in Ravenloft. They apply all the time.

It's a crappy rule in part because it doesn't scale well at all.

Where did I say that it was the best possible? Where is that even implied?

I don't know, where you bit my head off for not liking the rule?

Except for those of us not buying the party line that we are now at war with Oceania and always have been, and are able to see that the current edition of the rules don't suck quite so bad as the 4th ed developers would like us to believe.

The magic item creation rules have always sucked. Hence all the alternatives out there, including from WotC, long before 4E was announced.

 

[Nellisir]

I'm sorry, I didn't realize this thread was posted in the 4th ed forum. I thought we were talking about the game that is actually published and is currently being played by millions, not the theoretical rules of a game yet published, where everyone's house rules are official cannon, and everyone's dreams of The Perfect System comes true. Except for those of us not buying the party line that we are now at war with Oceania and always have been, and are able to see that the current edition of the rules don't suck quite so bad as the 4th ed developers would like us to believe.

Bring up strawmen much? Or is discussion of anything not in the DMG automatically "4e"? It's possible to improve the current system within the confines of 3e, and WbDb never said otherwise.

 

[Tewligan]

Except for those of us not buying the party line that we are now at war with Oceania and always have been, and are able to see that the current edition of the rules don't suck quite so bad as the 4th ed developers would like us to believe.

Equating Orwell's somber vision of the future with indignant nerdery made me laugh out loud at work - thanks!

 

[JDJblatherings]

Because in any campaign where they're used, one character, for the good of the group, gets to permanently slow his or her advancement. If the XP was taken from the character benefiting, it would be fair. But that fighter isn't giving up anything more than cash for that +5 vorpal greatsword, while the wizard is permanently weaker because of it.

It's a great idea if one was just, say, writing novels about these characters. At the table, though, it's crap.

Powerful campaign changing effects should have a cost a permanent cost even.

 

[Nellisir]

Powerful campaign changing effects should have a cost a permanent cost even.

A scroll of magic missile is campaign changing? And powerful?

 

[hazel monday]

It's bad because it means PCs are on different xp totals. Which means you have to keep track of xp and some PCs will level up separately. Much like permanent level drain, or resurrection based level loss, is a bad idea.

Spending action points for magic items is better.

I disagree with every word in this post except "to" "of" and"is". I think the XP using magic item rules are fine, because it discourages players from becoming walking item factories. If you want power, you gotta give up some power. Nothing wrong with a little sacrifice.
Level Drain is a great option when used sparingly.
I've never found characters being one level lower or higher than another a game wrecking phenomenon. I've never noticed a single problem come up with it actually.
And ressurection based level loss is good for the same reason reason as mentioned above. Death's gotta have some sting.
Maybe I'm a grognard at a young age, but as a DM, I want there to be in game consequences for my players' decisions. The 2 times I've been a player in the past decade were with babysitter type DMs who fudged dice not to kill, who let the players cheat a level drain, and who gave away free magic like it was candy. It was less than fun.

Also, action points bug me. Not sure why. I think because it'd seem cheap if NPC villains were throwing around action points. What's good for the goose sucks for the gander in this case. Boo action points.

 

[D.Shaffer]

I disagree with every word in this post except "to" "of" and"is". I think the XP using magic item rules are fine, because it discourages players from becoming walking item factories. If you want power, you gotta give up some power. Nothing wrong with a little sacrifice.

The problem with that is that at higher levels, they're just buying the things anyways. Sure, as a DM you can limit what they received, but using RAW they can just buy what they want in a sufficiently large town.

They need to balance how difficult it is to buy magic items with the difficulty in creating them. At the moment, from my experience, item creation just isnt worth the hassle. Players would rather just buy the stuff later on rather then waste valuable XP to create the things. And if no ones going to actually use the feats, they're wasting space that could be used for other things.

 

[hazel monday]

The problem with that is that at higher levels, they're just buying the things anyways. Sure, as a DM you can limit what they received, but using RAW they can just buy what they want in a sufficiently large town.

See, I find the problem with RAW is that the game can't actually be played RAW. At least not at anything higher than level 12.
I don't let my campaigns run higher than Lvl12, and I don't let my players shop at the magic wal-mart all willy nilly.
With these modifications to RAW, magic item creation is no problem.

 

[D.Shaffer]

With these modifications to RAW, magic item creation is no problem.

A bit of a simple conclusion here, but 'If you need to make modifications to the RAW to make RAW work...there's a problem that needs to be fixed.'