Jonathan Tweet advices: let the players peek behind the screen

[sinecure]

That's an interesting opinion and you're welcome to it, but I don't think you'll find it very helpful if you want to run or play 4e. Hey, you might, but it goes against the design of the game.

As I've said in probably too many places, one of the key things about 4e is that it is a game, and it is meant to be understood and played as a game. It does not try to model the physics of a fictional reality, so yes, it's pretty bad at doing so. This is not a bad thing, but it is a thing that some people don't like.

There are a lot of roleplaying games out here where getting the picture right in your head, so to speak, involves some discussion among the players at the table as to what the mechanical results "look like" in the fictional game world. D&D is now one of those, it wasn't before, and I can totally respect that it's a jarring change. It does require some slight changes in some groups' roleplaying styles to make it "fit the fiction", I suppose. This isn't that hard to do, but if you find the very concept of having to do so offensive, 4e is probably never going to make you happy -- because it really isn't trying to do what you want it to in that case.

Are you honestly saying that 4th edition is not a roleplaying game? that would make sense. What you are describing is a miniatures battle game like Warhammer. You can roleplay your little dudes while playing Warhamer, but that doesn't make it a roleplaying game. I think this is the fundamental difference between people who know what an RPG is and those who don't. RPGs have roleplaying as their #1 priority. Chess and minis games are best for what they do best.

The most shallow, insipid, uninteresting type of secret possible is a game-mechanical secret.

I agree. Mechanics should never be confused with, or for, the game. I mean, come on! Do you really think those players trying to outsmart the trap above are interested in whatever shorthand I use to describe it in my notes? That's crazy. They are playing with the trap itself. The cool, non-codified, imaginary construct I thought up. Hell, an orange could be a trap, if you open it wrong
(who here needs mechanics for that?)

 

[pemerton]

Are you honestly saying that 4th edition is not a roleplaying game?

I think that Sweeney Todd might be referring to games like The Dying Earth or HeroWars, in which the action resolution does not, per se, generate a fictional representation in the game world, and so needs some explicit narrative overlay to be provided by the players.

These games are different from Rolemaster, Runequest or Classic Traveller. But they are manifestly still RPGs.

 

[mattdm]

So, for our first session, I'm going to try some of this, and I'm also going to do the exact opposite: run an encounter with the battle grid behind the DM screen, and have players work entirely by description. They tell me how they want to move, I move their mini to match. I move the monsters and describe what they do.

I don't expect to play like that normally (too much work, for one thing!), but I think it'll be good to get everyone (including, or maybe even especially, me) thinking about the new game mechanics in terms of what characters do in the immersive scene, not as possible chess moves.

 

[Grazzt]

This is really bad advice.

Agree. First player that even tries to peek behind my screen gets the special "the monsters all seem to be attracted to you" curse for the next encounter.

 

[Serensius]

I'm a little on the fence about showing my players all the mechanics, but it seems to me that it would lead to a lot more sayings like "Oh, an orc, I need to roll 13 or better to hit him" rather than "Damn, orcs! I pull out my longsword and attack". Which, in my opinion, is not good.

 

[Piratecat]

I think that's fine advice for the first couple of games. I've run two 4e games, both with "open rolls." It's giving the players a faster ramp-up on understanding how things work. I won't run my regular campaign this way, but I have no complaints as we learn the rules.

 

[Jer]

I think that Jon Tweet actually missed one of the good things about letting players "peek behind the screen" while learning the rules - they actually learn the rules. And then they come up to you and say things like "you know, I've got this idea for an adventure that I'd like to run" or "I've never DMed before but I've been thinking..." and suddenly you've got another DM on your hands.

BTW: I don't know why people are getting upset about the fact that he's suggesting that you show the players the rules while you are all learning a new game. That seemed like painfully obvious and uncontroversial advice to me, but then I forgot that nothing is uncontroversial on the internets.

 

[ExploderWizard]

Hear, hear.

Sense of mystery as a game feature and design concept seems to be intentionally going out the window one aspect at a time. But why?

Lanefan

Its just another nudge to make folks more comfortable with the concept of D&D without a DM in my opinion. At first have the DM lay everything out so everyone can learn the mechanics, then once everything is all open anyway why do we need this DM guy anyway? I think Hasbro has wanted this for a while. The concept of marketing a product like a module that only one player out of a group of five or six will buy is unique to the RPG form and foreign to them. If everyone buys all products and plays equally there is more money to be made.

 

[Njall]

Agree. First player that even tries to peek behind my screen gets the special "the monsters all seem to be attracted to you" curse for the next encounter.

Wow. This is the most overpowered tanking utility I've ever seen

 

[Jedi_Solo]

Did I miss something?

What is wrong with a DM giving more info than usual to help players learn the rules?

Player 1: I rolled an 8. Do I hit?
DM: Let's see, the monster has a 20 AC. You rolled an 8 and you add your 8 attack bonus for a total of 16. I'm sorry, you miss.
Player 2: I rolled a 15. What about me?
DM: You rolled a 15 and we add your 6 attack bonus. That's a 21. You hit! Roll for damage.

I don't think Tweet wants all the numbers shown all the time after your group has been playing for two years. He says this is to help them learn how the system works. I don't see what the uproar is about.