Jumping While Charging - Long v. High Jump; also, Charging on Stairs Question

[hong]

F: Violation of “You must move before your attack, not after.”

I'm not seeing where there is a violation of this. On your turn, you can decide when in your move you take off on your jump, and you can decide to jump any distance up to the maximum allowed by your jump check. Taken together, this should mean you can always take off at that distance from your target so that you move exactly the required distance to reach your target, within the limits of your movement allowance. Thus there is no movement after the attack, since any movement beyond the limit takes place on your next turn.

In practice I wouldn't bother getting people to backsolve for the distance from target needed to get the jump right, and just assume they can charge and attack with a jump.

 

[Bagpuss]

In the second beholder illustration would the attack be allowed if where the character is illustrated he's already run 30ft (of his 60ft charge) so the end of the green line is where he finishes his charge "hanging in the air" and the red line is his compulsory movement at the start of his next turn.

Or if he was slowed, and restricted to a partial charge with a maximum of 30ft move.

Or if he only had 15ft movement (say for being small and in armour)?

 

[Atavar]

Those are pretty handy illustrations! I think they also confirm my original opinions that a) The fighter couldn't charge attack the beholder and b) you often can NOT charge on stairs.

Here is what I mean:

a) In all of your illustrations with the beholder, the attacker is changing direction, from a battle grid perspective. With the high-jump example he makes a 90-degree turn, for goodness sake! With the long jump example, if you go on a square-by-square basis, the attacker changes direction (i.e. not moving in a straight line). If he had spring attack, or found a way to end his turn's movement in just the right square, I agree that he could attack the beholder. But can he attack as part of a charge (in the sense of getting a +2 to his attack)? I say no.

b) In both of the stair illustrations the attacker is changing direction. Sure, if he and his opponent were both on the stairs or at the very top or bottom of the stairs, then there would be a straight line between you and your opponent and you could make a charge attack. But in both illustrations the attacker needs to move to the top of the stairs, and THEN change direction. If he has enough movement then of course he can make an attack at the end of his move if he ends up near enough to the opponent. But is it a charge attack with a +2 bonus? I say no.

YMMV, I guess.

Thanks for the great replies, everyone!

Atavar

 

[Bagpuss]

RAW allows charging on stairs.

Sure but if you read what you quote it doesn't say that you can change direction, you could read it that both you and you opponent need to be on the same flight of stairs at the start of the charge, hence you don't change direction you just continue along the plane of the stairs.

Both those illustrations show changes in direction and so technically could be ruled as not legal charges.

A legal charge on stairs would require a flight at least 15ft long, with your opponent at the foot, so you start at the 15ft mark and move the required 10ft to your attack position while remaining on the stairs.

 

[frankthedm]

a) In all of your illustrations with the beholder, the attacker is changing direction, from a battle grid perspective. With the high-jump example he makes a 90-degree turn, for goodness sake! With the long jump example, if you go on a square-by-square basis, the attacker changes direction (i.e. not moving in a straight line).

Actually, this is why i specificly said "The rules themselves seem to be written from a “looking down at the field” where in up and down distances are mostly ignored." The rules do not equate changing elevation with changing direction. Looking down at the battlegrid all 4 of those examples I made are straight lines. Only the movement after the jump is the problem with the long jump charge.

 

[frankthedm]

A legal charge on stairs would require a flight at least 15ft long, with your opponent at the foot, so you start at the 15ft mark and move the required 10ft to your attack position while remaining on the stairs.

If changing direction and changing elevation were the same in this system, you'd be right.

 

[frankthedm]

If you accept that, as part of a charge one may jump over difficult terrain (thus gaining altitude in the process) without changing direction, then what is the difference movement wise when, as part of a charge one jumps over normal terrain (thus gaining altitude in the process), other than the fact that you have ended your movement mid-jump?

The option to leap over difficult terrain on a charge is provided by the F.A.Q., not the core rules. The rules are very, very clear on the subject of bad terrain. The RAW does not give a damn about how well someone jumps. If that line of charge goes through bad terain, charging is not an option.

Second, if any line from your starting space to the ending space passes through a square that blocks movement, slows movement, or contains a creature (even an ally), you can’t charge. (Helpless creatures don’t stop a charge.)

I personally think allowing jumping over bad terrain on a charge is one of the few reasonable thing the FAQ has done.

 

[RangerWickett]

I'm curious why people seem so hesitant to follow the spirit of charging? I mean, I posted some logical arguments as to why the rules are irrational on how they restrict charges. Do you not agree that from a common sense stand point, it should be easy to build up enough speed for a charge, even if you change direction somewhere on your turn?

I personally prefer a liberal interpretation of the rules. Maybe that's not for you.

 

[Atavar]

By changing elevation you ARE often changing direction. Yes, your bird's-eye-view illustrations do show what appears to be a straight line despite the change in elevation. However, the fact is that the attacker is NOT moving in a straight line; your side-view illustrations show this clearly.

I posit that the vast majority of combat rules are written with the assumption that everything is happening two-dimensionally (i.e. on the ground), most likely to make the examples simpler. When considering three-dimensional combat, though (which my original post is essentially asking about), I think it's easy enough to extrapolate that the straight-line rule for charging must apply in all three dimensions, not just the two dimensions used in most examples of the combat chapter of the PHB.

It just seems to make sense to me. "You must move in a straight line in a charge--unless you go up or down, in which case you can change direction all you want." Now THAT doesn't make sense to me.

Later,

Atavar

 

[RangerWickett]

I believe the flying rules say you can run or charge while flying, but can ascend no more than 5 ft.