Jumping while Charging?

I allow it

But then I have a dwarf with a ring of jumping who's favourite tactic is a jump charge into combat. I still impose a few restrictions:

- must be in a straight line (charge)
- still gets the +2 to hit and -2 to AC (charge)
- needs a 10' running start and must be able to make the remaining distance as part of the jump check. I am a bit flexible on the total distance jumped (i.e. can be more than a normal 40' double move as the ring of jumping allows you to jump beyond your natural limits.)

Bigwilly
 

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Read the Duelist PrC from the 3.5 DMG, or Swashbuckler from Complete Warrior. Class ability: Acrobatic Charge. Basically it allows you to charge up/down/over obstacles in your path to complete your charge, making the appropriate skills checks as needed with no additional penalties.
 
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Judas said:
Read the Duelist PrC from the 3.5 DMG, or Swashbuckler from Complete Warrior. Class ability: Acrobatic Charge. Basically it allows you to charge up/down/over obstacles in your path to complete your charge, making the appropriate skills checks as needed with no additional penalties.

Actually, reading it from the DMG p 186.
"Acrobatic Charge (ex): At 6th level, a duelist gainst he ability to charge in situations where others can not. She may charge over difficult terrain that normally slows movement. This enables her to run down steep stairs, leap down from a balcony, or to tumble over tables to get to her charge target. Depending on the circumstances, she may still need to make appropriate checks (Jump or Tumble checks in particular) to successfully move over the terrain."

First things first. Just because a feat or prestige class gives something as an "ability" does not mean that others can't do it. In 3.0, the feat Eagle Claw Attack let characters sunder items with unarmed strikes even though bludgeoning weapons normally couldn't sunder. Except they could (according to the erratta). I didn't read the Eagle Claw Attack feat and figure that the erratta must be wrong because here's feat that lets you do it so you obviously can't do it without the feat. The rules were quite clear that you could do it, so it just made the feat a lame feat (a fact that was mercilessly mocked by Hypersmurf on numerous occasions).

The DMG quite explicitly lists balance DCs to move or charge over certain kinds of difficult terrain. This very strongly implies that it is normally possible.

Second, the acrobatic charge ability expands the possibilities of charging beyond what they normally are--even under my interpretation of the rules. So the "what's the point of this ability if everyone can do it?" argument doesn't wash.

The acrobatic charge ability seems a whole lot more generous than what we're discussing. Take, for instance, the question of jumping during a charge. My view is that a character could normally (without the ability) charge an enemy behind a table (in a bar fight for instance) as long as he made the jump check to jump onto the table at the end of the charge. If the table were not next to the target, the character would need to clear both the vertical and horizontal distance of the table with the jump check in order to charge.

Acrobatic charge, OTOH, mentions tumbling over tables as a part of a charge. That should be easier than jumping over them (though it's not clear what the DC would be) and is probably not possible without the ability since tumble does not ordinarily allow a character to avoid difficult terrain.

In another example, acrobatic charge lets the duelist charge down steep stairs. Ordinarily, this requires a DC 10 balance check to avoid stumbling. (DMG 63). I think it's possible to read the duellist's acrobatic charge ability as no longer requiring this check since the check is not necessary to get by the terrain at all (as a jump check is for getting over a wall) but merely to get by it at speed without falling.

Similarly, jumping down from a balcony is not the same thing as jumping over small obstacles in a straight line path to the target. It falls under the "ordinarily not possible as a part of a charge" (unless the foe is next to the spot you land) category but is made possible by acrobatic charge even if you have to keep running 15 feet after landing in order to reach your charge target.
 

Wow, that almost seems hostile in reaction. I mere stated an ability of a class that does what you were wanting. And I don't care if anything doesn't "wash" with you. If you allow ANYBODY do an Acrobatic Charge as per the ability for said classes, you are making those classes less valuable. If you wanted this as a normal ability then I would suggest making this class ability a general feat, thereby every character has the possibility of taking it. Anybody can attempt to do the charge without the feat, but the dc's are at +15 or +20 to do so.
 

Judas said:
Wow, that almost seems hostile in reaction. I mere stated an ability of a class that does what you were wanting. And I don't care if anything doesn't "wash" with you. If you allow ANYBODY do an Acrobatic Charge as per the ability for said classes, you are making those classes less valuable. If you wanted this as a normal ability then I would suggest making this class ability a general feat, thereby every character has the possibility of taking it. Anybody can attempt to do the charge without the feat, but the dc's are at +15 or +20 to do so.

What you're saying is "because some classes have this ability, I'll take it away from everyone else".

It's like saying that if someone invents a level 0 'flavour' spell that suddenly prestidigitation cannot flavour things - you need the 'flavour' spell instead.

Looks to me like the class ability lets you charge while balancing, while climbing and while tumbling.

Seems to me that's a big benefit over being able to charge while jumping already. I see no need to disallow jumping charges on the basis of this ability, nor do I see how it helps with jumping charges or, indeed, contributes to the discussion at all.
 

And I'm saying that the class ability is probably best interpreted to do more than I am talking about and that, furthermore, the rules as written explicitly provide for all characters to do at least part of it with ordinary skill checks (no +15 or +20 to the DC). Charging down a steep stairway on DMG pg 63 is a paradigmatic case.

You can do whatever you like in your game but I don't think the rules as written support you on this. And, rather than simply registering my disagreement, I will laid out a case for elbandit or other users who have similar questions. Disagreement--even when supported by reasons and arguments--is not the same thing as hostility. I can (and often do) say that something is a bad idea without insulting the person who holds those views. That's exactly what I did here.

Judas said:
Wow, that almost seems hostile in reaction. I mere stated an ability of a class that does what you were wanting. And I don't care if anything doesn't "wash" with you. If you allow ANYBODY do an Acrobatic Charge as per the ability for said classes, you are making those classes less valuable. If you wanted this as a normal ability then I would suggest making this class ability a general feat, thereby every character has the possibility of taking it. Anybody can attempt to do the charge without the feat, but the dc's are at +15 or +20 to do so.
 

Wasn't there a specific example of krusk using the jump skill to charge a foe on the other side of a pit in the PHB or some other core rule book?
 

frankthedm said:
Wasn't there a specific example of krusk using the jump skill to charge a foe on the other side of a pit in the PHB or some other core rule book?
No. The example (under the Jump skill - PHB, pg. 77) simply describes him jumping as part of normal movement.
 

I'm not in favor of allowing a jump as part of a charge movement. However, the SRD doesn't seem very clear about it:

SRD said:
You must have a clear path toward the opponent, and nothing can hinder your movement (such as difficult terrain or obstacles). Here’s what it means to have a clear path. First, you must move to the closest space from which you can attack the opponent. (If this space is occupied or otherwise blocked, you can’t charge.) Second, if any line from your starting space to the ending space passes through a square that blocks movement, slows movement, or contains a creature (even an ally), you can’t charge. (Helpless creatures don’t stop a charge.)

To me it sounds like you cannot jump over an obstacle such as a table or a short barrier during a charge. One could argue that jumping allows you not to have your movement blocked or slowed. Also, if instead of an obstacle (high jump) you are jumping over a hole in the ground (long jump), it may seem even more feasible.

What allows you to jump as part of a charge is the "action" entry in the skill description.

As a rule of thumb I think it makes more sense to not allow a high jump as part of a charge, and at least to increase the DC of a long jump (or require a separate check) to represent the fact that when you land you have lose the momentum of the charge. And maybe require a minimum of another 10ft between landing and attacking...

Instead, the action of attacking at the same time you land seems to me a sort of action difficult (or cinematic) enough to require a feat. There was in fact a Mantis Leap feats for monks in S&F about it.
 

Li Shenron said:
...at least to increase the DC of a long jump (or require a separate check) to represent the fact that when you land you have lose the momentum of the charge.

I think the idea of the jump-charge is that the momentum is transferred INTO the object being attacked, hence the bonus to attack. That's also why I rule that you need to reach your target with the jump check - if you don't make it then no attack this round.

Bigwilly
 

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