Jumping while Charging?

[ARandomGod]

See, the thing with reading text is that you can never hear tone of voice, or any inflections in said tone.
...

Which is why I piped in with my two cents there. I thought perhaps he was overreacting to you, but I also wanted to give you what I thought might be his reasons, as I saw them (There are only reasons, no excuses!). Then I thought I'd further point out how I saw your communication. I'm big on communication.

 

[Three_Haligonians]

If you can jump it without slowing down

You can't, though, if you're jumping up. Jumping up is fighting against the force of gravity. You need to work against gravity, and also start a motion upward, which takes more effort (which is why you are slow when you start running, you're trying to get past the effort of starting an object in motion). Jumping up always slows you down as it requires a lot of force. Every jump is jumping up at some point. If you're talking about running off of a ledge, and continuing on the ground below, that's a whole different hurdle ('scuse pun).

There is no obsticle, by the definition of obsticle: "One that opposes, stands in the way of, or holds up progress."

So there actually is an obsticle, because it holds up progress.

R from Three Haligonians

 

[Li Shenron]

I still don't like that you consider the need to jump as "clear path".

If it is allowed by the rules, then it will work also for a high jump? Or would you make it different? How could you still be charging after such a jump? Doesn't seem easier to me than for example changing direction during a charge, which is clearly forbidden.

 

[ARandomGod]

I still don't like that you consider the need to jump as "clear path".

If it is allowed by the rules, then it will work also for a high jump? Or would you make it different? How could you still be charging after such a jump? Doesn't seem easier to me than for example changing direction during a charge, which is clearly forbidden.

An obstruction is something that slows you down. Can you do a high jump without slowing?

Different people will consider different things obstructions. A house is clearly an obstruction to a human, but might not be one for a great wyrm.

Similiarly a twig is a mighty obstruction to an ant, who couldn't charge you, whilst you could obviously charge him.

A rat might be obstructed by a stream that you would simply charge right over. Not through, mind you. It would slow you down if you stepped in it, but you're to smart to *do* that.

A dwarf fighter in full plate and slippers (isn't that a funny picture?) of spiderclimb with no ranks in jump would have to go around the long, low table. A catfolk monk wearing boots of striding and springing likely would not even notice the extra large step needed to not step in that five foot square.

Obstructions are things that obstruct. You call it a *need* to jump, as if that's an effort or something. Many characters don't even need to roll the dice to clear five or ten feet of table or river or twigs in their path. Sure, the ant (or dwarf) might be envious of the other not needing to slow down. Might even not like that this thing isn't by any definition at all an obsticle. But then, the cat who's invested several skill points in jump isn't really going to like the fact that something that in no way impeeds or slows him down, at the cost of a heafty personal investment, is still a phantom obsticle... in no real way than that it arbitrarily counters all the skill points that he has spent.

Doesn't seem easier to me than for example changing direction during a charge, which is clearly forbidden.

It might not be easier*, but it IS different. Mainly in that it's not forbidden, as changing direction clearly is.


*although it actually is, have you never tried this personally? Plus it's obviously easier to some, because some people have invested skill points in it. Noone that I know of has invested skill points in changing directions in a charge. ALthough if they had I'd think it was pretty wrong of a DM to disallow it functioning (at least, after allowing the skill in the first place)! Here is a skill meant to overcome obsticles, meant to remove them from the realm of problem into the realm of nonissue. I think that saying it doesn't do this is denying the skill it's function.

 

[Three_Haligonians]

Here is a skill meant to overcome obsticles, meant to remove them from the realm of problem into the realm of nonissue. I think that saying it doesn't do this is denying the skill it's function.

I'm not saying that characters who put ranks into Jump can't jump. I'm saying they can't while charging.

Different people will consider different things obstructions. A house is clearly an obstruction to a human, but might not be one for a great wyrm.

Yeah, I buy that. I didn't mean twigs, though. I guess anything that gives cover should also be considered an obstacle, as a quick, on-the-fly answer.

It might not be easier*, but it IS different. Mainly in that it's not forbidden, as changing direction clearly is.

My point has been that it is forbidden by the rules though (you must have a straight line to charge). Jumping is not travelling in a straight line. Anyway, I know it's not spelled out in the rules specifically, but there's many other things that aren't, as well.

Well, these are just my opinions, anyway. If you think you can Jump while charging, cool.

*although it actually is, have you never tried this personally?

Yes, I've been known to jump.

R from Three Haligonians

 

[Judas]

In a loose way, (and I mean very loose) you have somewhat made my point stronger. A "charge" is building of momentum and using that momentum to apply force to your swing, while sacrificing some of your mobilty (Do not confuse with feat). When you jump, you do slow down. The only people who don't slow down are athletes running over hurdles. A hurdle may be 3 to 4 feet high, but it's only 1/2" thick/long, not 5 to 10 feet long. Long jumpers, can actually jump the distance (possibly, I haven't seen the olypics since 1980), but no where is it possible for a long jumper to continue running at the same speed after he lands the jump, even if there wasn't a sand pit. Now picture both athletes trying to do thier respective jumps in armor.

Now, I said you strengthened my point, and in a way, you did. Changing direction while charging. It *IS* possible, but only after you taken the Fleet of Foot feat listed in Complete Warrior. The feat provides a turn of up to 90 degrees while charging. The Swashbucklers Acrobatic Charge ability falls into this again, as when you charge, you are allowing to charge over obstacles when the appropriate jump and/or tumble checks are made to bypass the obstacles.

I could see if player came to me, and said "I really like this ability of this class, but the whole swashbuckler persona doesn't fit what I envisioned for my character. Let me describe what I was thinking for my character, and maybe you can make that class ability a feat for my character to take." If his description was sound, I would probably have no problem in turning Acrobatic Charge into a feat for *THAT* character, or possibly taking away a class ability of the class he had chosen, and replacing it. Keep in mind also, the Acrobatic Charge can only be done in Light or No Armor, and the character cannot be encumbered in anyway.

 

[ARandomGod]

In a loose way, (and I mean very loose) you have somewhat made my point stronger. A "charge" is building of momentum and using that momentum to apply force to your swing, while sacrificing some of your mobilty (Do not confuse with feat). When you jump, you do slow down. The only people who don't slow down are athletes running over hurdles. A hurdle may be 3 to 4 feet high, but it's only 1/2" thick/long, not 5 to 10 feet long. Long jumpers, can actually jump the distance (possibly, I haven't seen the olypics since 1980), but no where is it possible for a long jumper to continue running at the same speed after he lands the jump, even if there wasn't a sand pit. Now picture both athletes trying to do thier respective jumps in armor.

Now, I said you strengthened my point, and in a way, you did. Changing direction while charging. It *IS* possible, but only after you taken the Fleet of Foot feat listed in Complete Warrior. The feat provides a turn of up to 90 degrees while charging. The Swashbucklers Acrobatic Charge ability falls into this again, as when you charge, you are allowing to charge over obstacles when the appropriate jump and/or tumble checks are made to bypass the obstacles.

I could see if player came to me, and said "I really like this ability of this class, but the whole swashbuckler persona doesn't fit what I envisioned for my character. Let me describe what I was thinking for my character, and maybe you can make that class ability a feat for my character to take." If his description was sound, I would probably have no problem in turning Acrobatic Charge into a feat for *THAT* character, or possibly taking away a class ability of the class he had chosen, and replacing it. Keep in mind also, the Acrobatic Charge can only be done in Light or No Armor, and the character cannot be encumbered in anyway.

If you want your point strengthened you don't have to go farther than the DMG, Duelist, where there is also an acrobatic charge.

However, so they in your opinion slow down, or lose momentum after a jump. Do you apply this houserule to every jump, or only charges?

Also, what if they ended the jump, the one jump, in the attack, that would be transferring all the momentum used up into the attack, just as you want.

OK, ok, I can see the argument that this is loose writing, and should be house ruled. On the other hand, that makes it officially unofficial, as by the writing it clearly says the opposite... well, for a given value of clear. You have to look at what an obstruction really is, and realize that the jump skill, as written, completely negates some things that would otherwise be obstructions from the realm of an obstruction. Hence nothing to stop them from charging if they make the check. At least, as written. And I'm arguing striktly RAW here. I'm not making an opinion as to should or should not.

But... But you're also making MY point stronger. THey have a feat for it, therefore it can be done. Feats also increase skills. They also have a skill for it, it's called jump. And, since jump removes the reason you can't do it, as the feat allows you to do it anyway, then it can be done.

And, in the lose writing department, I bring in Darkness to my defense. A spell that clearly does not create light, despite how it's written and officially played. But that's a house rule, isn't it? Because how it's written it indeed does create light, as stupid as that is.

 

[Judas]

Which Feat are you reffering to? Acrobatic Charge is a class ability, not a feat.

I would take each senario in a case by case situation. I could see where a table (if light and/or small), or some other object could simply be pushed out of the way, and wouldn't hinder the charge in any way. If I remember correctly, there was a jump kick feat in a 3.0 splat book, but I think it was for monks only.

While I do believe it's possible to do, but only with an expendeture by the character (Making Acrobatic Charge a feat in that special case scenario, or by simply taking the appropriate levels in the correct class), and not just something everyone can do just because they have ranks in jump, or have Skill Focus: Jump.

Charge. PHB, page 154-155.
Charging is a special full-round action that allows you to move up to twice your speed and attack during the action. However, it carries tight restrictions on how you can move.
Movement During a Charge: You must move before your attack, not after. You must move at least 10 feet (2 squares) and may move up to double your speed directly toward the designated opponent. You must have a clear path toward the opponent, and nothing can hinder your movement (such as difficult terrain or obstacles). Here’s what it means to have a clear path. First, you must move to the closest space from which you can attack the opponent. (If this space is occupied or otherwise blocked, you can’t charge.) Second, if any line from your starting space to the ending space passes through a square that blocks movement (such as a wall), slows movement (such as difficult terrain), or contains a creature (even an ally), you can’t charge. (Helpless creatures don’t stop a charge.)

If you don’t have line of sight to the opponent at the start of your turn, you can’t charge that opponent.

You can’t take a 5-foot step in the same round as a charge.

If you are able to take only a standard action or a move action on your turn, you can still charge, but you are only allowed to move up to your speed (instead of up to double your speed). You can’t use this option unless you are restricted to taking only a standard action or move action on your turn (such as during a surprise round).

Jump Skill. PHB, Page 77.
All Jump DCs given here assume that you get a running start, which requires that you move at least 20 feet in a straight line before attempting the jump. If you do not get a running start, the DC for the jump is doubled.

Long Jump: A long jump is a horizontal jump, made across a gap like a chasm or stream. At the midpoint of the jump, you attain a vertical height equal to one-quarter of the horizontal distance. The DC for the jump is equal to the distance jumped (in feet). For example, a 10-foot-wide pit requires a DC 10 Jump check to cross.

Hop Up: You can jump up onto an object as tall as your waist, such as a table or small boulder, with a DC 10 Jump check. Doing so counts as 10 feet of movement, so if your speed is 30 feet, you could move 20 feet, then hop up onto a counter. You do not need to get a running start to hop up, so the DC is not doubled if you do not get a running start.

Jumping Down: If you intentionally jump from a height, you take less damage than you would if you just fell. The DC to jump down from a height is 15. You do not have to get a running start to jump down, so the DC is not doubled if you do not get a running start. If you succeed on the check, you take falling damage as if you had dropped 10 fewer feet than you actually did. Thus, if you jump down from a height of just 10 feet, you take no damage. If you jump down from a height of 20 feet, you take damage as if you had fallen 10 feet.

Action: None. A Jump check is included in your movement, so it is part of a move action. If you run out of movement mid-jump, your next action (either on this turn or, if necessary, on your next turn) must be a move action to complete the jump.

By these RAW, a jump is NOT possible during a charge. And even if it was, let's say you need to jump over a 5'x5'x3' table. The height at the apex of your needs to be a bit higher than the height of the table. You would need to clear about 5' at your apex so your feet would clear the edges of the table. Now, the height you achive is one quarter of the distance, so 5'x4 = 20' distance needed to be jumped, which is also a DC20. So there's 20' of a standard characters 30' move. Now you only have 10' of movement before the jump, so you're not meeting the required 20' run, so your 20 DC is now 40 (And for our Dwarf fighter in armor, he has -6 movement penalty and whatever the armor check penalty is for the chosen armor). If you double move you can keep the DC 20, but then you just used your attack action to move, so you can't even attack now for this turn.

Do you still believe you can jump within a charge?

 

[SpookyDonkey]

I would say it depends on the context. Charging does not allow you to bypass obstacles - including, if I recall correctly, other PCs that you could normally move through - which implies that even if it would not disrupt the linear movement, jumping over an obstacle wouldn't work.

However, having said that, our group has been using the "vertical charge" for some time. A vertical charge is when you are charging an opponent from higher ground - jumping down, even directly on top of your opponent, is valid because you're still moving directly towards him.

I don't think I've ever successfully conviced my DM to give me bonus damage for gravity, though.

 

[iwatt]

I'm in the charge while jumping group. I think by the RAW it's supported, but even more importantly, it's allowed due to it's coolness. A +2 to attack for a -2 to AC is no big deal. But having the Dwarf slam his hammer on the head of the wizard slinging spells on the other side of a 10' pit is just too cool not to use. IMC, I encourage acrobatics. PC's Diving onto creatuers under them (and possibly missing ) is just too cool an action that it's worth reinforcing.