Jumping while Charging?

[Majoru Oakheart]

I agree that allowing everyone to do the one cool thing that duelist and swashbuckler get for free is kinda devaluing the PrCs.

All of the rules need to be tempered with a little bit of common sense. Can you charge while leaping over the table? Unlikely, most people who aren't olympic athletes don't jump all that well, even if they happen to be able to jump long distances. Keeping your speed up after jumping (whether long or high) is very difficult. Even hurdle jumpers lose speed when jumping, just less as they train for a long time to avoid losing momentum.

I run it as the RAW. I draw a line from the player to the target of the charge. If it passes through any square that contains difficult terrain, obsticles, or a change in level (such as stairs, pits, etc), then a charge is not possible. It doesn't matter what type of movement they are using to bypass the terrain, the fact that they have to use movement to bypass it at all is what prevents a charge from being possible.

This is the same reason you can't charge through party members. Although they will "help" you by getting out of the way, and you can slightly sidestep them (costing no extra movement and having nothing block your path), you still can't charge. You may have to have waited half a second for them to get out of your way, or slow down slightly to avoid hitting them or tripping over their feet, etc. It attempts to model all of the small, silly sort of things that we don't want to have to worry about.

Simply put, there are MANY things that we can't really account for when making a jump that are all rolled into a generic jump check. The easiest way to visualize it is that when people jump, they have to briefly bend their knees to cushion their landing, slowing down their momentum. Whereas swashbucklers or duelists can do backflips, spin moves and strange acrobatics to land effortlessly.

 

[Bigwilly]

Good points, but...

I agree that allowing everyone to do the one cool thing that duelist and swashbuckler get for free is kinda devaluing the PrCs.

I don't have any duelists or swashbucklers IMC at the moment. Also, do note that I am not allowing everyone to do it, just one particular character who has a magic item that makes him really good at jumping.

All of the rules need to be tempered with a little bit of common sense. Can you charge while leaping over the table? Unlikely, most people who aren't olympic athletes don't jump all that well, even if they happen to be able to jump long distances.

I totally agree. If I think a player is trying something that is beyond the bounds of common sense, then I won't allow it. Also most of the time, the dwarf is jump-charging even when there is no pit/obstacle to cross and if there was a high object in the way then he would still need to go around it just like everyone else. However, remember that a PC with a high jump skill (no matter how he gets it) is the equivalent of an olympic athlete.

Keeping your speed up after jumping (whether long or high) is very difficult.

No problem with this either, especially as the way I visualise it, the jump ends with the attack - a bit like a death from above - so NO loss of momentum.

However, getting back to the heart of the issue. If by the RAW a charge is a full round action and a jump is part of a move action, not a full round action, then by the RAW you cannot charge-jump. But then, that's why house rules were invented in the first place. ;-)

Bigwilly

 

[Judas]

Question. What is the dwarf attacking with?

As for charging while flying, I don't see why not. It's just adding a 3rd dimension to the direct path route. Boots of flying act per the fly spell, so perfect manuverability at 30' or 60' (I can't remember at the moment).

 

[Li Shenron]

I am in favor of charging while flying. I think the rules say that as long as you have a fly speed (natural or from a spell it's the same) you can take all special movements actions while flying. A similar thing happens IIRC with swim speed, climb speed and perhaps even burrowing speed (although this may hardly apply to charge... ).

I'm not in favor of charging when jumping even downwards however. I don't know how you guys jump, but if I had to jump down a wall (let's say higher than 1.5 meters) I don't think I could swing a club AND land safely at the same time. I could do one but not both. At the very least, if a HR allowed this you should get an attack penalty (which may be greater than the charge bonus itself).

 

[iwatt]

So why not allowing everyone to freely use Whirlwind attack because it's cool? By these line of reasoning, why can't a 5yrs old kid with a toy sword spin around? Everyone can make a 360degree turn in 6 six second with a stick stretched!

Using this argument is streching it a bit. You're comparing a highly complicated maneuver (end of a very long feat chain) with something that could easily be described by saying it's a circumstance modifier to attack (+2) and to AC (-2). Which (+2/-2) isn't a game breaking effect.

I think it makes very much more sense to make the ability of jumping as part of a charge/run a feat. If a feat is too costly for the benefit in one's opinion, merge it with Fleet of Foot, or otherwise give the feat another benefit or use.

In my camapigns, I try to avoid creating extra feats when I believe it can be better handled by adjusting the game mechanics. How many PCs in your campaigns take these special maneuver feats ? Personally, (and this is an almost philosophical position for me) feats are precious commodities (even for Fighters) that should be used for heroic effect. If I can get an effect through adjusting and empowering skill use, I tend to do that. If the barbarian has gotten a +30 to his jump check, i guess I want the player to see some use out of that investment. And when I use the word "cool" it's because i try to encourage visually attractive moves and descriptions in my combats, and I've noticed that encouraging these maneuvers through game mechanics has the desired effect.

By the way. In one of the Dragon magazines centered on swashbuckling, they described alternate situations in which you could get charge bonuses. If I recall correctly, these included swinging from a chandelier. Falling from higer ground, and others. Of course it's not Core, and was intended for swashbuckling campaigns, so it isn't really "evidence" for jumping + charging

Finally, and I know I've rambled here a bit, isn't there a monk feat that says that you deal extra damage when you jump as part of a charge? Leaping kick maybe?

 

[ARandomGod]

All of the rules need to be tempered with a little bit of common sense. Can you charge while leaping over the table? Unlikely, most people who aren't olympic athletes don't jump all that well, even if they happen to be able to jump long distances. Keeping your speed up after jumping (whether long or high) is very difficult. Even hurdle jumpers lose speed when jumping, just less as they train for a long time to avoid losing momentum.

We're not talking most people, we're talking really, really good jumpers. Usually with magical aid, or simply high level.

(For real world do some math. You'll discover that, really, most people who aren't olympic jumpers don't move 30 feet in 6 seconds. The average fast walk speed for a healthy 20 year old is 2 MPH. One mile is 5280 feet. Two is 10560. There are 3,600 seconds in an hour. Therefore a fast walk averages 2.93 feet per second. In six seconds that would be 17.6 feet. So, the average healthy real world person moves slower than a dwarf. And that was done in shorts and gym shoes. Completely unencumbered. So we really aren't doing real world movements anyway.)

Keep in mind that, according to the Rules As Written, you don't slow down when you jump, whether you think you should or not. Sure, perhaps they should be written so that there is a slow down, but they simply aren't. However I support making houserules wherever you disagree, as long as you're consistent. Darkness creates light my @ss!

...I run it as the RAW. ...

I still argue that RAW allows this. You're saying that you run it RAW while simultaniously pointing out that your reason for disallowing the jump in a charge is a reason that is clearly anti RAW confuses me. You're statement that you believe that people slow down from a jump is not supported in any way in the RAW, and in fact it's clearly written so that you do not. Although it seems a perfectly valid house rule and it would make your interpretation that you can't jump during a charge correct. But it's not RAW.

 

[Saeviomagy]

This is what I hate about 3.0 to 3.5. All the little changes that combine to completely f*ck you up:

How exactly?

- Charge is now clearly described as a full round action (this is actually good), so our dwarf in plate mail can move up to 40' in a straight line and make a charge attack.

Yup.

- Jump mechanics completely changed so he needs a 20' move (think this used be 10' but not sure), leaving only 20' of move left for jump. Jump is still part of movement, so it depends on whether on not you allow a jump as part of charge full round action (I do).

But if he's still in midair at the end of his jump, he can land next round. Nothing in the charge action requires you to still have both feet on the ground at the end of it.

- Ring of jumping (and spell) nerfed. Ring of jumping 3.0 added a massive +30 to the jump check. Improved Ring of jumping 3.5 adds an underwhelming +10.
Needless to say when I started this campaign in the 'old' days, the ring that the dwarf got gave a +30 bonus. I have not changed this so the dwarf still gets +30 on his jump checks.

Given that the spell can still add +30, I'd just replace the old ring of jumping with a use activated ring that cast jump. Since I'm the DM, there's nothing stopping me from approving this, and I don't really see that it causes any problems.

Now for the jump calculation. The Dwarf has only 1 rank in jump but does have a +5 strength bonus. He takes a -6 armor check penalty (full plate) and another -6 because he only has 20' move, but then gets +30 from 3.0 ring of jumping for a total before rolling of 24. If he takes the 20' run up, he can clear 20' (DC20) without having to take a jump check and with an average roll can make 35'. DC35 and taking into account the fact that 3.0 jump spell also allowed you to jump further than you normally could.

The 3.5 rules eliminate the height/length limit altogether. If you can make the check, you can jump the distance, no maximums.

So IMC, I will allow him to continue to make jump-charges as much as he likes and as long as he makes the roll. In a 3.5 RAW campaign, he couldn't.

Yes he could...

 

[Li Shenron]

Using this argument is streching it a bit.

Heh! I think everyone in this thread is "stretching a bit"

You're comparing a highly complicated maneuver (end of a very long feat chain) with something that could easily be described by saying it's a circumstance modifier to attack (+2) and to AC (-2). Which (+2/-2) isn't a game breaking effect.

The bonus itself is not a big deal, but the attack in the same round as the double movement is. Charging seems strictly limited to quite optimal circumstances. If one can't do a simple thing like taking a 5ft adjustment in one direction, then charge in a straight line (not over your max distance) and get the extra attack, I don't think it should work with jumping over an obstacle.

I know Whirlwind Attack has a big game benefit, in fact I wouldn't allow it for free either. It's just to mention a sort of movement which IMO everyone could be said it should be allowed to attempt, by "RL comparison".

In my camapigns, I try to avoid creating extra feats when I believe it can be better handled by adjusting the game mechanics. How many PCs in your campaigns take these special maneuver feats ?

Well, I do exactly the opposite! Adjusting the game mechanics means everyone suddenly has a change in what she can/can't do, so when someone has a good idea but which I think it's breaking the rules, I suggest the PC can spend a feat to learn the trick.

OTOH I had considered before to turn all the combat "active feats" (Power Attack, Expertise, Weapon Finesse, Spring Attack...) into mechanics, and allow everyone with the prerequisites to perform those actions. It's another possibility of course.

Personally, (and this is an almost philosophical position for me) feats are precious commodities (even for Fighters) that should be used for heroic effect.

I agree. But my mental image about jumping&charging is exactly something quite heroic, not for everyone. I say it again, if the game benefits are too few for the cost of the feat, I'd add another benefit to the feat.

If I can get an effect through adjusting and empowering skill use, I tend to do that. If the barbarian has gotten a +30 to his jump check, i guess I want the player to see some use out of that investment. And when I use the word "cool" it's because i try to encourage visually attractive moves and descriptions in my combats, and I've noticed that encouraging these maneuvers through game mechanics has the desired effect.

I always wish that WotC publish expanded skills rules! If you choose to tie this action to the Jump skill (perhaps even just by saying that jumping as part of a charge has a -10 penalty) then it's ok for me. Same if you instead require a difficult Balance check after the jump to continue the charge. Obviously the feat solution is just a suggestion... but IMHO without a cost shouldn't be allowed (and I say that for the sake of a little realism, not because this specific situation is too good).

By the way. In one of the Dragon magazines centered on swashbuckling, they described alternate situations in which you could get charge bonuses. If I recall correctly, these included swinging from a chandelier. Falling from higer ground, and others. Of course it's not Core, and was intended for swashbuckling campaigns, so it isn't really "evidence" for jumping + charging

Those additions could be nice for that type of campaign. That's more like variant rules, if one wants a strong swashbuckling feeling they're fine even allowed to everyone. Not for everyone tho... it's like requiring a Spellcraft roll each time to cast a spell correctly or waste the spell: lots of people like having more difficult and unpredictable magic in their campaign, but it doesn't mean it would work for everyone.

Finally, and I know I've rambled here a bit, isn't there a monk feat that says that you deal extra damage when you jump as part of a charge? Leaping kick maybe?

In S&F there was a feat called Mantis Leap. IIRC it allowed you to jump and land in front of your opponent and get charge bonuses (I don't remember if it allowed max distance equal to double your speed) and probably some small damage bonus as well. It required some levels of Monk.

 

[Bigwilly]

Yes he could...

While he shredded my arguments, at least he agrees with me!

Bigwilly

 

[iwatt]

The bonus itself is not a big deal, but the attack in the same round as the double movement is. Charging seems strictly limited to quite optimal circumstances. If one can't do a simple thing like taking a 5ft adjustment in one direction, then charge in a straight line (not over your max distance) and get the extra attack, I don't think it should work with jumping over an obstacle.

I see were you're going with this. I just don't fear the charge as much

Probably has to do with the fact that I haven't had to deal with centaur PCs with the spirited charge feat wearing Rhino Hide armors

And just FYI, I do allow a 5' adjustment for charging. Basically, if you think the character should be able to charge, I allow it. Our games go something like this:

PC: " Bordin wants to jump the pit and smash the Goblin who's sniping at him"
Me: (after looking at the battle map and seeing that there's sort of a straight line between points) " Sure, If you clear the pit you can attack him. The benefits of a charge apply.

There's nothing that get's on my nerves more than Players counting squares. If in a round a PC moves 55' or 65', It doesn't erally bother me. This is compounded by the fact that I'm currently running a Barbarian campaign were everybody moves 40' or +. The spring atatcking bard Is just adjusted into moving in and out to werever he wants to go on the battle map the same with the wolf animal companion.

As you can see I run a pretty free-flowing campaign (rules-wise).

Finally, about charging benefits when falling on an enemy, just remember that the PCs is probably provoking AoOs for moving through threatened areas. Add a Longspear wielding Ogre with Hold the Line feat and Pcs are in a world of hurt if they try this