Just a conversation

[Greenfield]

This isn't necessarily a single topic discussion thread, just a place to explore thoughts about our games.

A friend at my local game shop and I were swapping stories about our campaigns and he commented that, "Your group gets into some epic shot" (yes, I misspelled that on purpose). And by "epic" he meant grand adventures. Ring in a mountain kind of things.

The games that play at that shop (there are several) rarely rise to anything resembling "grand". The shop owner who DMs one of the campaigns keeps the PCs from getting"too big for their britches" as he puts it. They aren't allowed to become well known heroes or champions.

How grand are your games? Does the DM prefer a scaled and controlled environment, or do players become respected powers?

 

[nijineko]

depends on their actions. the main campaign i run (ag16) goes from level 1 to 30 or so. no one has finished the campaign yet, but one group has made it further than any other.

 

[Stormonu]

I think I tend to run a more "scaled & controlled" sort of game, as you put it. I really don't like running D&D past 12th level - if even that high.

I have had characters become well-respected champions and heroes though. They just don't tend to get into world-shaking/altering events. They have, however, made their mark on the local area.

 

[pemerton]

How grand are your games? Does the DM prefer a scaled and controlled environment, or do players become respected powers?

My games tend to follow what I see as the default logic of D&D - start out modest, grow grand.

My current campaign is 4e, which builds that progression in pretty solidly via paragon paths and epic destinies - a bit like "name level" in classic D&D, these elements of the PC build rules make the PCs as respected powers an automatic consequence.

But even in other games I've run (mostly Rolemaster) the PCs gradually grow in importance as the campaign progresses - once they're on talking terms with deities, for example, the local watch aren't giving them any trouble, and they're not scraping and scrabbling for supper money!

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Some campaigns go from gutter to glorious, some start at the top and stay there. Some never get away from the "local hero" level.

 

[MortalPlague]

Usually, my games stay in the lower scales, but I've had a handful go grand enough that the characters have a reputation. I'd like to do more higher level games, but there are two problems. First, D&D seems to bog down at high levels under the weight of game-breaking abilities and multitude of rules and options. Secondly, I vastly prefer to follow a character from obscurity as they rise to prominence, rather than starting off at high levels to begin with. That way, the character has a real, defined place in the world, with allies, enemies, and a history. It always feels artificial to try and add that in around a high level PC.

 

[Greenfield]

Usually, my games stay in the lower scales, but I've had a handful go grand enough that the characters have a reputation. I'd like to do more higher level games, but there are two problems. First, D&D seems to bog down at high levels under the weight of game-breaking abilities and multitude of rules and options. Secondly, I vastly prefer to follow a character from obscurity as they rise to prominence, rather than starting off at high levels to begin with. That way, the character has a real, defined place in the world, with allies, enemies, and a history. It always feels artificial to try and add that in around a high level PC.

I agree with you an most of this.

I don't think I've ever played in a campaign that started above 2nd level. Working your way through the low levels helps the players get comfortable in their particular PC's role in the game and the world. Their collection of gear ends up with eclectic oddities instead of an optimized set from Wiz-Mart.

But I also agree that several editions now have gone off the rails towards the end, as later publications completely mutated the available power availability.

One solution we've used in my 3.5 campaigns is to start with the agreement on three core books only, at least to begin with. Items, spells, classes etc from other books are approved on a case by case basis.

They do come in, over time, just as they were gradually added to the system over time. A couple of characters have odd spells in their arsenal that are more or less viewed as proprietary. That is, they're from an earlier edition or an obscure book and are rare enough in the game world that they've become signature pieces for the individuals.

We're not talking world shaking anything, mostly minor utility or good color spells.

At the same time we've looked at some spells or special abilities granted to particular classes and simply said "no". We agree on something else in its place, but some things are just a bit too tempting and easy to abuse.

I think the essence of all the extra books in any edition is that they're optional. The players and/or DM can choose which books to include in their campaign, and even which parts of which books to allow access to.

I think the goal, when all is said and done, is to involve everyone in a good story. If certain sourcebooks help with that story, use them. If they only serve to inflate the power level, don't.

 

[Razjah]

Some campaigns go from gutter to glorious, some start at the top and stay there. Some never get away from the "local hero" level.

I've had similar experiences. I've run games where the PCs never really even make a name for themselves, and others where they are famous. I've don soldiers where the party just did their job, and others where they were gaining ranks in an mercenary company.

It depends on the system, the group, and most importantly the campaign and the stories we are trying to tell.

 

[the Jester]

It very much depends. There have been long periods where no pc was celebrated really anywhere, and then periods when there are pcs who are gods, heads of religions, emperors, etc.

My current group leads a small nation.

 

[nijineko]

i have never had any difficulty challenging the group even at high levels. one time, i held off a party of 5-6 18th level character with one properly optioned npc for something like 10 rounds. another time, i pitted a group of six 16th level characters against 120-ish npcs. they liked that one. and yet another time, i gave another high level group serious trouble with a mob of low level mooks with reach weapons using aid another to hit the party's high ac. gave them serious pause to realize that such low level mooks could take them on and actually cause them to worry.

as such, i always aim for high-level play. i find having more options in the hands of experienced players is more fun for everyone including the dm.

(as a side note: it is rather amusing when two of the players absolutely refuse to let their characters touch a particular category of thing in game due to previous events, even now that they are such high level characters! trauma from the events of previous encounters....)