Just Advice this time around

[Lefayindustries]

I have reviewed the GSL and would like to know how exactly one would go about publishing games for 4th ed and listing them as compatible without using the GSL. For example could I list 4th Edition compatible on my products and reference material in D&D books, such as per the drowning rules in the players handbook. I want to be extra sure that I review all my possible publishing options prior to releasing 4th ed material.

Any assistance on exactly what my boundaries might be in this type of situation would be great.

If it helps my plans are as follows:
-Create an OGL for material which does not infringe on wizards material but is compatible.
-Be able to claim compatibility

Any help would be amazing,
Sincerely, Seth

 

[PatrickLawinger]

I have reviewed the GSL and would like to know how exactly one would go about publishing games for 4th ed and listing them as compatible without using the GSL. For example could I list 4th Edition compatible on my products and reference material in D&D books, such as per the drowning rules in the players handbook. I want to be extra sure that I review all my possible publishing options prior to releasing 4th ed material.

Any assistance on exactly what my boundaries might be in this type of situation would be great.

If it helps my plans are as follows:
-Create an OGL for material which does not infringe on wizards material but is compatible.
-Be able to claim compatibility

Any help would be amazing,
Sincerely, Seth

You are going to hate this answer, but this is exactly the type of thing you need to talk to a real lawyer about. I have consulted with an IP lawyer (I was lucky enough to pay with an $80 bottle of scotch) about these questions and there are lots of "gray areas" that have not really been hashed out in the courts.

People get upset when they post like this and just want "simple answers" but those answers could be considered legal advice and cause trouble. Your exact questions about particular products are going to be different than mine, so my lawyer's comments and advice might not apply and could simply confuse the issue for you.

I know that not all people know IP lawyers that can help them out but there are lawyers and legal services that are fairly reasonable. A face to face or telephone conversation with a lawyer that knows and understands aspects of copyright and trademark law is pretty crucial. That way you can explain to the lawyer exactly what you want to do and they can tell you the best way to go about it.

There are several different options you can use to publish material for 4e, but those options can have various different limitations or benefits dependent on the exact product you want to publish.
Sorry,
Patrick

 

[pawsplay]

IANAL, but from my understanding, you have two options.

1. Use the GSL as God and WotC intended.
2. Not use a license at all, and make sure your product is clearly compatible but not derivative, and that you do not appear to be using their trademark to imply association with them.

Trying to use the OGL and then claim compatibility is the thing you cannot do.

7. Use of Product Identity: You agree not to Use any Product Identity, including as an indication as to compatibility, except as expressly licensed in another, independent Agreement with the owner of each element of that Product Identity. You agree not to indicate compatibility or co-adaptability with any Trademark or Registered Trademark in conjunction with a work containing Open Game Content except as expressly licensed in another, independent Agreement with the owner of such Trademark or Registered Trademark.

 

[Urizen]

I kind of think he means SRD instead of OGL...

Meaning, he wants to create his own System Reference Document consisting of DND compatible material that he creates, which is freely available for other companies to use...

I_think_that's what he means.

It's something I had thought about, and still might do, but I'll only reference material that I create, or other companies choose to "donate" to the SRD.

One bad egg is doing something similar, I think to what the OP wants to do.

 

[CapnZapp]

Whatever else that might be said about this subject, one thing is clear:

Don't expect sound advice if people doesn't even understand your question...

 

[Lefayindustries]

Thanks for the advise I did mean SRD not ogl that was my bad. Urizen pretty much hit the nail on the head. I am thinking I might want to check with a lawyer as understandably it is a pretty tricky topic. Thanks for those that offered some pointers.
Regards, Seth

 

[MonkeyKing]

As far as I understand IP law game rules can not be copyrighted and 4e isnt under any sort of patent so you can do pretty much whatever you please as long as your avoid the trademarks. Heck you could even write a your own "clone" of 4e if you wanted to.

 

[kenmarable]

As far as I understand IP law game rules can not be copyrighted and 4e isnt under any sort of patent so you can do pretty much whatever you please as long as your avoid the trademarks. Heck you could even write a your own "clone" of 4e if you wanted to.

If only it were that simple. You include a tiefling or dragonborn - well, you slipped from "non copyrightable rules" to "copyrighted term". A case could even be made that terms like "armor class" and "hit points" are copyrighted and you would need to swap those out. Heck, even a 4e clone that included "dragonmen", "devilmen", "armor bonus", and "life points" could lead to a lawsuit if there was even a perception of trying to confuse consumers into thinking your game is the same as D&D.

Saying "you can do pretty much whatever you please as long as you avoid the trademarks" is pretty dangerous legal advice.

It's a gray area, and probably relies more on how much of a perceived threat you are (not so much as competitor, but as threat to not losing control of their intellectual property) as opposed to what the actual legal precedent is out there. As far as I understand, there's been more far companies that have caved to legal/financial pressure thinking they can go that route than there have been cases actually going to court to set any sort of precedent. So the real precedent is on the little guys wanting to avoid bankruptcy long before they can ever get a legal verdict. Plus the actual handful cases (if there even are that many) turn on the precise definitions of "mathematical formulas" and "specific expressions of those formulas", so it isn't as simple as "game rules can't be copyrighted, so do what you want".

So, if someone like WotC offers you a free license to use their material under certain restrictions, unless you really, really, really know what you are doing (like the folks at Adamant or Goodman Games), use the license not the "rules can't be copyrighted" route.

That's my advice to anyone, for what it's worth.


As for your actual question of wanting to create new material but be able to share it (as I understand your question to be), I would echo Urizen and have you check out One Bad Egg's Open Gods project. They have a good grasp on the issue, and it's always nice to just copy a good example and build it into the standard way of doing things than for everyone to each try their own way of sharing.

 

[Varianor Abroad]

He's not giving legal advice....

 

[CapnZapp]

As I understand it, not wanting to sign the GSL is something you'd chiefly consider only if you're a well-established 3PP (from the d20 era, or otherwise).

If your company is new, there is less to lose. It depends on what your instinctive thoughts on "placing your future at the whims of WotC" are.

If you have an existing rpg business, that prospect may be unacceptable. Especially if you think you have managed to grab yourself enough market recognition (through d20 products) to strike it out on your own.

If you're new, the risks (WotC folding, or pushing a 5E) might be insignificant compared to the opportunities (new rpg companies very seldom get rich publishing brand new rpg lines; and WotC offers you access to, what, 90% of pnp rpg customers total).