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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Irda Ranger" data-source="post: 4488108" data-attributes="member: 1003">Where you see a "new dimension" I see muddying the water between D&D and RuneQuest.  Put a bit less cryptically, in previous editions of D&D you strove to become Achilles (a God among men).  A 20th level character only had to worry about CR15+ monsters (or their OD&D/AD&D peers).  But in 4E you have to worry about level 6 brutes that have been promoted to level 15 Minion.  Minions are a way for the DM to say "You're not so tough after all - these orc pirates can hit you. You know that AC 25 you've spent 10 levels builting up to? Well it's not worth anything to me 'cause I got more minions where that came from."I'm exaggerating of course.There are fundamentally two different games here. To use terms from last year I'll call them the "Classic D&D Progression" where you go from Gritty --> Heroic --> Wu Xia --> Supers, and the "E6 Progression" where you stop at Heroic.  In the Classic D&D Progression Kobolds just aren't a threat past a certain level.  Neither are pirates or city guards.  But in the E6 Progression you stop getting better after a certain point and city guards are always dangerous (even if "less" dangerous).Do you see how that's what Minions do?  They prevent the PCs from being Wu Xia and Super.  "What do you mean pirates can hit me?  I'm Superman in full plate!!"You should also notice that in E6 there is no need to justify high level guards and pirates.  Regular old 2nd level Pirates can still hit your AC and do a bit o' damage, so pile enough of them on and they will eventually cause you to "Pull a Boromir."  Being 16th level doesn't mean that you can't be hurt by 2nd level characters, it just means you take more of them with you before going down.Now that's a perfectly fine way to play, but many of the problems that have arisen in this thread arose from the fact that some people really ought to be playing* E6 instead of 4E, but since they're playing 4E they find a way to justify high level opponents to get the effect they're looking for. That's an admirable goal, but you're going about it a bit backwards.If you really want to allow for Kobolds and  Orcs to be a threat at all levels, just remove the +1/2 to Attacks and Defenses from the game.  Strip it out of monsters and PCs.  Really, it gets you the effect you're looking for and it's much easier than fussing with Minions and all the headaches of justifying monsters that suddenly warp between 5th level brute and 12th level minion depending on which cardinal direction they're facing. *By which I mean the rules were written to achieve your goal, and no shoe-horning is required, so you "ought to" in the sense that it's just easier and smart to use the proper tool for the job you've chose.</blockquote>

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