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Justifying high level 'guards', 'pirates', 'soldiers', 'assassins', etc.

fissionessence

First Post
So right now I'm reading through the Sea Reavers adventure from today's Dungeon article. Not to give away any spoilers, but there are some high level (15th) human enemies. How do you justify random guards, assassins, etc. or whatnot being above, say 6th or maybe 8th level? (In 4E terms; adjust the level/power based on your system of choice.)

It seems there should come a time where only extraordinary examples from among mortal races should pose any threat to the PCs.

~
 

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This is one area where 4E kind of doesn't deliver on the promise that the heroes are "special". The PC's are special because they are doing the deeds that no one else is doing and not always because they are the only ones who can.

Eventually PC's will face NPC's with classes and levels much like them in ability but on the other team. From a logic standpoint there have to be NPC's with the same abilities and skills as the PC's, or else they never could have trained.
 

Zsig

Explorer
The same way you justify an acrobatics check to avoid slipping on a pool of water at lvl 30 having a DC of 28 while, a lvl 1 character on the very same pool of water would need only to roll a 10.

Short answer: just don't.
 



Dausuul

Legend
So right now I'm reading through the Sea Reavers adventure from today's Dungeon article. Not to give away any spoilers, but there are some high level (15th) human enemies. How do you justify random guards, assassins, etc. or whatnot being above, say 6th or maybe 8th level? (In 4E terms; adjust the level/power based on your system of choice.)

Generally speaking, I don't. I despise that crap and always have. If you don't want high-level PCs being able to wipe the floor with the city guard, then don't use a game system where the PCs' combat power increases exponentially with level. (Or else ratchet down the PCs' advancement rate, or cap their advancement at a point you're comfortable with.)

In my campaigns, random guards are mooks. Previous to 4E, they were in the level 1-3 range. Now that we have the minion rules, they can be up to level 8-9 minions (but that's for very tough, disciplined soldiers; remember that legion devils start at 6, and any fighting force tougher and more disciplined than legion devils has to be pretty bad-ass).

To me, this is vital for maintaining immersion. Players have to have a sense of how powerful their PCs are in the grand scheme of things. If you're a 15th-level PC, you should be able to say confidently that you can carve your way through a bunch of guardsmen without breaking a sweat. The guardsmen should not suddenly shoot up ten levels because some paragon-tier PCs wandered through town. I would mercilessly mock any DM who pulled that kind of baloney.

Now, that doesn't mean PCs will never face high-level NPC foes. But when they run up against such enemies, there should be a definite sense that they are facing people who are really special - like the PCs themselves. These folks are not random guards or wandering thugs. They are important characters with reputations, maybe even legends.

I remember when I was playing the first expansion pack to NWN2, I got into a bar fight. My party consisted of four or five 19th-level characters (and remember, this was under 3.5 rules). Properly speaking, a bar fight at that level in 3.X ought to go something like this:

"The fighter sends the thug and fifteen of his buddies sailing across the room with one swing of his barstool, looking rather like Sauron in the movie version of Fellowship of the Ring. The cleric utters a brief prayer and everyone in the bar is dazzled by a flare of holy light, leaving them stunned. Then the wizard wiggles a finger and the building explodes. Meanwhile, the rogue has picked the pockets of everyone in the room, emptied the till, and found the tavern owner's secret stash under the floorboards."

Instead I found my party of supreme bad-ass heroes having a rough time with a bunch of lowlifes in a bar. It totally yanked me out of the game world and killed my interest in the story (not permanently, but enough that I quit out of the game and didn't get around to starting up again for a while).
 


Aristotle

First Post
I agree that the standard "guard" shouldn't go up in level just because the party did. The force of 2nd level minions who manned the guard towers at 1st level is still mostly comprised of 2nd level minions at 9th level. Of course, if you run afoul of them and they sound the alarm... you might find yourself facing the 10th level special forces division that recruits adventurers and veterans and adheres to strict training programs. In a more well established city, or a more militant culture, higher levels would be reasonable as well.

Also, a single stat block for all guards is a little generic. I'll throw in a 4th level character now and then. An up and comer with a violent past or a natural aptitude for combat. The players don't know all of that of course... they just know this one can take a hit and dish out more of the same.

The captain of the guard could totally be 30th level, a veteran with a solid reputation locally but little renown elsewhere. The men who travel with him and assist him might be 26th level. They are not just subordinates; they are trusted allies who have seen battle more than once with their captain.

There was a 3rd edition thread about an epic level inspector. I very much follow the philosophy that an individual can achieve high levels without being known around the world.
 

Irda Ranger

First Post
So right now I'm reading through the Sea Reavers adventure from today's Dungeon article. Not to give away any spoilers, but there are some high level (15th) human enemies. How do you justify random guards, assassins, etc. or whatnot being above, say 6th or maybe 8th level? (In 4E terms; adjust the level/power based on your system of choice.)
What is this, Oblivion? Blech.

My answer: I don't. This is bad adventure design.


It seems there should come a time where only extraordinary examples from among mortal races should pose any threat to the PCs.

~
Agreed.
 

S'mon

Legend
So right now I'm reading through the Sea Reavers adventure from today's Dungeon article. Not to give away any spoilers, but there are some high level (15th) human enemies. How do you justify random guards, assassins, etc. or whatnot being above, say 6th or maybe 8th level? (In 4E terms; adjust the level/power based on your system of choice.)

It seems there should come a time where only extraordinary examples from among mortal races should pose any threat to the PCs.

~


As others have said, I don't do this as such. The Imarr City Guard are ca 3rd level when the PCs are 1st, and still 3rd level when the PCs are 20th.

I do create rare ultra-elite military units, such as the 15th level Malgedan Sunguard - the personal Emperor's guard of a 10,000-year-dead inter-dimensional empire awoken from a Stasis Vault for one final battle... But I don't think that's what you're thinking of. :)

The general rule with City Guard police types is that, if they are successfully keeping order (not, eg, Rio de Janeiro police) then they must be tougher than their typical opposition. So these days I try to avoid the Gygaxian trope of zero-level city guards, unless the city is inherently very peaceful & orderly. In 3e, 3rd level Warrior is typical, if I ran 4e something like the MM Human Guard looks reasonable. The interdimensional metropolis Nexus has city guards who are 6th level Fighters.

Likewise, with pirates - most typical pirates are going to be low level, in 3e 1st or 2nd level Warriors is typical. Inter-dimensional Reavers like the crew of the Rogue Mistress might be 6th or even 8th level Fighters and such, but I'm not going to go above that. 9th level characters are Lords, in any D&D game I run, and aside from Emperor's-Personal-Bodyguard are almost never encountered in multiples.

Edit: I haven't run 4e but I'm satisfied from reading rpgnet threads that 4e is not intended to function with fixed NPC stats. So rather than keep the NPC Guard/Pirate stats constant, the trick is to keep their XP award constant and change the stats to fit the XP. As the PCs advance in levels the same pirate may go from being a Solo to Brute to Minion - durability goes down, offense goes up, overall threat stays constant.
 
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