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Justifying high level 'guards', 'pirates', 'soldiers', 'assassins', etc.
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<blockquote data-quote="Fanaelialae" data-source="post: 4938346" data-attributes="member: 53980"><p>I use "quantum state" NPCs in my games.</p><p></p><p>IME, down-ranking NPCs does make the PCs feel like they've grown stronger. Let's assume, for example, that I decide the average King's Guard is worth 500 xp (a level 1 solo). </p><p>At level 1, Joe the fighter needs all four of his buddies to take down one of these Solos.</p><p>By level 6, Joe and Bob the rogue can beat the Elite just working together.</p><p>Level 10 and Joe can beat a Standard King's Guard all by his lonesome.</p><p>Once he's level 18 Joe can easily take on 5 of these Minions (DMG2 guidelines) without breaking a sweat.</p><p></p><p>There's nothing saying you <em>can't</em> use the Solo version at level 18, beyond that the DMG points out that it'll be pointless and boring (Joe will have to deal over 400 pts of damage to Guards he can only miss on a 1 and who can only hit him on a nat 20; quite grindy and lacking any semblance of threat IMO). Neither the level 18 minions nor the level 1 solos stand a snowball's chance in hell of beating Joe, but at least the minions can't be ignored and die quickly (with the solos he can lay down and take a nap as even a coup de grace isn't a legitimate threat from them and their damage will be minimal; the minions can't coup de grace him either but will beat his hps to a bloody pulp for deciding to take a nap in the middle of a fight).</p><p></p><p>IMO being able to fight off 5 of the King's Guard simultaneously is a clear improvement over eight levels ago when a single King's Guard posed an equivalent threat, and it's pretty clear to my players even if they still need to roll the same 10 to hit that they needed 8 levels ago. Eight levels ago the guardsman would have dodged the blow and merely gotten scratched; now he is skewered by the "same" attack.</p><p></p><p>I confess, I don't really comprehend the complaint about NPCs scaling with you. AFAIK, D&D has always done this. You improve your attack and defenses so that you can take on bigger and nastier threats, not so you can hunt down endless level 1 goblins until they stop granting xp. Shifting the odds from 1:5 to 5:1 over 18 levels is a healthy improvement as far as I'm concerned.</p><p></p><p></p><p>Regarding Blue Slime, I see page 42 as offering DCs for relevant challenges. At level 1, the Blue Slime in the Kobold Warrens is a DC 10 to avoid slipping. If at level 19 the PCs start feeling nostalgic and visit the Warrens to look around, the slime is still DC 10 but I don't bother asking them to roll; they have a +9 from 1/2 level alone so what would be the point? On the other hand, if they decide to go hunting frost giants, I might decide there's DC 21 Black Ice in the Fortress of Frost. <em>Black Ice, now with more than <strong>twice</strong> the slipperiness of Blue Slime! Accept no substitutes!</em></p><p></p><p>At heroic tier I might ask the PCs to make a roll when hopping over a brook filled with pointy rocks on a sunny day.</p><p>At paragon it might be a rushing stream during the middle of a hurricane.</p><p>At epic it may be a river of lava while blinded and choking on a constant downfall of burning ash.</p><p></p><p></p><p>That said, I do think that NPCs of unusually high level should be restricted. I would be bothered by a group of random level 25 street thugs.</p><p></p><p>The guards from the module in question don't seem like a big deal though since they're only minions. As I stated earlier, I have no issues with "quantum state" NPCs since IME they make the game more fun than using tons of meaningless, low level creatures. A 13th level minion and a level 5 standard can be the same creature in my world with no issues. I wouldn't have a level 5 PC running with a level 13 party (or vice versa) so no worries there either.</p><p></p><p>For me, NPCs of levels 1-10 are pretty reasonable. Certainly, this doesn't apply to Farmer Average, but I don't see why the grizzled veterans of a frontier fort on the edge of the Forest of No Return shouldn't be level 10. After all, these are the guys keeping the more common, dangerous frontier threats (like ogres and trolls) out of the kingdom proper. It would break my sense of consistency if the fort under weekly troll attacks was manned by inexperienced level 3 chumps who can barely hit their foes.</p><p></p><p>Why don't these level 10s just handle the troll threat themselves? Standard NPCs are not as strong as individual PCs in 4e. In an equal level, one on one fight the NPC will lose to a PC every time unless he gets lucky. PCs are overall stronger than NPCs, and this is exponentially truer when those PCs are working as a team. </p><p></p><p>In addition, it's often easier to defend than attack. Holding the trolls back from behind sturdy fort walls using flaming arrows is a world of difference from trying to invade the caves where those trolls live. Home turf advantage.</p><p></p><p>The example of the drunk and disorderly PCs who get beat up by the guards and then asked to deal with trolls, is IMO a bad one. I think this is a case where the DM ought to try to identify <em>why</em> the PCs became drunk and disorderly in the first place, rather than just using super-guards to beat them into submission and force them to do his will. </p><p></p><p>In any case, in my campaigns the guards are never individually too strong for the PCs to handle (because that would indicate that the PCs are in an area where the threats are completely out of their league). They may or may not be higher level than the PCs, but they'd have to come en mass to have a realistic chance of beating the PCs. IME, unless heavily drained of their resources (surges and dailies), PCs can take on sizable forces of reasonably over-leveled NPCs and still win.</p><p></p><p>I base my guards on the threats that they have to deal with. Guards dealing with Kobolds and Goblins would be levels 1-5. A town that is threatened by frost giants on a regular basis would either have guards in the 17-22 level range, or it wouldn't be a town for very long. A reasonable objection would be not to build towns in frost giant territory, of course, but if one did then either that town should have some treaty with the giants, or a means to defend the town from their predations.</p><p></p><p></p><p>Finally, regarding the assertion that E6 would be a better fit, I respectfully disagree (at least in my case). Saying I want 25 of the King's Guard to be viable threat at 18th level (whereas 5 were a threat at level 10) isn't the same as saying I don't want my Archmage to turn into a ghost and kick butt before coming back to life again, when I hit level 24. Show me the E6 character that can do <strong>that</strong> and I might consider giving it a second look. It's instead saying that I'm not interested in slogging through 400+ hp that I could just as easily ignore, when I could instead be fighting a horde of minions that might actually present some semblance of a challenge and will die quickly at the very least.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Fanaelialae, post: 4938346, member: 53980"] I use "quantum state" NPCs in my games. IME, down-ranking NPCs does make the PCs feel like they've grown stronger. Let's assume, for example, that I decide the average King's Guard is worth 500 xp (a level 1 solo). At level 1, Joe the fighter needs all four of his buddies to take down one of these Solos. By level 6, Joe and Bob the rogue can beat the Elite just working together. Level 10 and Joe can beat a Standard King's Guard all by his lonesome. Once he's level 18 Joe can easily take on 5 of these Minions (DMG2 guidelines) without breaking a sweat. There's nothing saying you [i]can't[/i] use the Solo version at level 18, beyond that the DMG points out that it'll be pointless and boring (Joe will have to deal over 400 pts of damage to Guards he can only miss on a 1 and who can only hit him on a nat 20; quite grindy and lacking any semblance of threat IMO). Neither the level 18 minions nor the level 1 solos stand a snowball's chance in hell of beating Joe, but at least the minions can't be ignored and die quickly (with the solos he can lay down and take a nap as even a coup de grace isn't a legitimate threat from them and their damage will be minimal; the minions can't coup de grace him either but will beat his hps to a bloody pulp for deciding to take a nap in the middle of a fight). IMO being able to fight off 5 of the King's Guard simultaneously is a clear improvement over eight levels ago when a single King's Guard posed an equivalent threat, and it's pretty clear to my players even if they still need to roll the same 10 to hit that they needed 8 levels ago. Eight levels ago the guardsman would have dodged the blow and merely gotten scratched; now he is skewered by the "same" attack. I confess, I don't really comprehend the complaint about NPCs scaling with you. AFAIK, D&D has always done this. You improve your attack and defenses so that you can take on bigger and nastier threats, not so you can hunt down endless level 1 goblins until they stop granting xp. Shifting the odds from 1:5 to 5:1 over 18 levels is a healthy improvement as far as I'm concerned. Regarding Blue Slime, I see page 42 as offering DCs for relevant challenges. At level 1, the Blue Slime in the Kobold Warrens is a DC 10 to avoid slipping. If at level 19 the PCs start feeling nostalgic and visit the Warrens to look around, the slime is still DC 10 but I don't bother asking them to roll; they have a +9 from 1/2 level alone so what would be the point? On the other hand, if they decide to go hunting frost giants, I might decide there's DC 21 Black Ice in the Fortress of Frost. [i]Black Ice, now with more than [b]twice[/b] the slipperiness of Blue Slime! Accept no substitutes![/i] At heroic tier I might ask the PCs to make a roll when hopping over a brook filled with pointy rocks on a sunny day. At paragon it might be a rushing stream during the middle of a hurricane. At epic it may be a river of lava while blinded and choking on a constant downfall of burning ash. That said, I do think that NPCs of unusually high level should be restricted. I would be bothered by a group of random level 25 street thugs. The guards from the module in question don't seem like a big deal though since they're only minions. As I stated earlier, I have no issues with "quantum state" NPCs since IME they make the game more fun than using tons of meaningless, low level creatures. A 13th level minion and a level 5 standard can be the same creature in my world with no issues. I wouldn't have a level 5 PC running with a level 13 party (or vice versa) so no worries there either. For me, NPCs of levels 1-10 are pretty reasonable. Certainly, this doesn't apply to Farmer Average, but I don't see why the grizzled veterans of a frontier fort on the edge of the Forest of No Return shouldn't be level 10. After all, these are the guys keeping the more common, dangerous frontier threats (like ogres and trolls) out of the kingdom proper. It would break my sense of consistency if the fort under weekly troll attacks was manned by inexperienced level 3 chumps who can barely hit their foes. Why don't these level 10s just handle the troll threat themselves? Standard NPCs are not as strong as individual PCs in 4e. In an equal level, one on one fight the NPC will lose to a PC every time unless he gets lucky. PCs are overall stronger than NPCs, and this is exponentially truer when those PCs are working as a team. In addition, it's often easier to defend than attack. Holding the trolls back from behind sturdy fort walls using flaming arrows is a world of difference from trying to invade the caves where those trolls live. Home turf advantage. The example of the drunk and disorderly PCs who get beat up by the guards and then asked to deal with trolls, is IMO a bad one. I think this is a case where the DM ought to try to identify [i]why[/i] the PCs became drunk and disorderly in the first place, rather than just using super-guards to beat them into submission and force them to do his will. In any case, in my campaigns the guards are never individually too strong for the PCs to handle (because that would indicate that the PCs are in an area where the threats are completely out of their league). They may or may not be higher level than the PCs, but they'd have to come en mass to have a realistic chance of beating the PCs. IME, unless heavily drained of their resources (surges and dailies), PCs can take on sizable forces of reasonably over-leveled NPCs and still win. I base my guards on the threats that they have to deal with. Guards dealing with Kobolds and Goblins would be levels 1-5. A town that is threatened by frost giants on a regular basis would either have guards in the 17-22 level range, or it wouldn't be a town for very long. A reasonable objection would be not to build towns in frost giant territory, of course, but if one did then either that town should have some treaty with the giants, or a means to defend the town from their predations. Finally, regarding the assertion that E6 would be a better fit, I respectfully disagree (at least in my case). Saying I want 25 of the King's Guard to be viable threat at 18th level (whereas 5 were a threat at level 10) isn't the same as saying I don't want my Archmage to turn into a ghost and kick butt before coming back to life again, when I hit level 24. Show me the E6 character that can do [b]that[/b] and I might consider giving it a second look. It's instead saying that I'm not interested in slogging through 400+ hp that I could just as easily ignore, when I could instead be fighting a horde of minions that might actually present some semblance of a challenge and will die quickly at the very least. [/QUOTE]
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