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*TTRPGs General
Justifying high level 'guards', 'pirates', 'soldiers', 'assassins', etc.
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<blockquote data-quote="Celebrim" data-source="post: 4941427" data-attributes="member: 4937"><p>I don't think I'm the one that is confused. </p><p></p><p><em>Try and look at it this way: the levels of the characters alone is irrelevant to how cinematic - or not - an adventure or style of play is.</em></p><p></p><p>Hense, E6 - which is a system primarily defined by its level limitations - cannot be said to be handicapped in producing 'cinematic' adventure or style of play because of its level limitations. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Not if the Balrog used its 1st edition stats. The smaller sort of Balrog (we may assume that the Balrog of Moria was not a Lord amongst its own kind) would have had like 6HD IIRC. Definately a tough fight, but if you are have a magic staff of some sort (as Gandalf appears to) then certainly doable.</p><p></p><p>The Balrog you know is a victim of stat inflation, of the notion that large scale 'cinematic' play can only be the result of larger numbers or that larger numbers are somehow inherently cooler. It's happened in every edition of D&D thus far. In early 1st edition, 100 h.p. was just an insane amount of hit points for a PC. By late 1st edition or 2nd edition, people could concieve of PC's breaking the 200 h.p. mark. By 3rd ediition, most characters of any class would concievably break the 200 h.p. mark, and you could reasonably expect to have a 300 h.p. PC's. if they were built to maximize hitpoints. I have no idea what the theoreticals for PC's in 4e are, but I do know that the hit points of the monsters have inflated again and that the number of expected levels have increased yet again.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Look again at what you just said. Once again you've tied cinematic play to level. <em>Try and look at it this way: the levels of the characters alone is irrelevant to how cinematic - or not - an adventure or style of play is.</em></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Why would you assume that? Do you regularly scale Mt. Everest, or regularly follow the Amazon to its source, or treck out into the Great Erg of the Sahara? Do you regularly descend down the big drop into the depths of Fern Cave (because some of us probably do), and if you do do you consider this your mundane day-to-day troubles? Do you regularly face off against tribes of cannibals, thugs of secret snake cults, incarnated nightmares, insane undead serial killers, and monsters of legend? Is that what you call your mundane day-to-day troubles? Yet, what about that is incompatible with 'grim-and-gritty' roleplaying? In fact, it is precisely capturing those sorts of challenges that 'grim-and-gritty' DMs/players want. It's precisely because in high level play, players don't treck out into the Great Erg of the Sahara - they greater teleport, wind walk, take a flying carpet, etc. - that you do 'grim-and-gritty' play. Not because the adventures are more mundane if they are solved by mundane means, but because they are less mundane and more 'cinematic' when treking out into the Great Erg actually happens and the players are conscious of the great adventure that this represents rather than treating it as a trivial obstacle which is easily put out of the mind.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Put it this way - the Fellowship of the Ring were never going to fail for any reason. Hense, the whole analogy is false, but to the extent that you want to site the LotR as canonical, then I would say that the closest the adventure ever came to failure, the root cause was dehydration. In the last sixth of the book, the overriding concern of the PC's was food and water, and pretty much every chapter is focused on their attempts to overcome the limited water supply.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>First of all, no they wouldn't, because in a good sandbox campaign and unlike a good story, nothing ever happens 'no save'. In something other than a story, its quite possible to traverse Moria without meeting the Balrog. In fact, within the story, it was also possible, because both Gandalf and Aragorn had done it before and concievably had the party been more stealthy ("Fool of a Took!") they could have done it again. But what does that have to do with anything? If I'm a DM in a sandbox campaign, I probably won't present the hook of an NPC coming to the characters and saying 'You possess the One Ring of Power' until I suspect that some path allows them to accomplish the quest they are likely to take if they bite the hook. However, if you go to Moria, there is a Balrog in the depths and that will be true regardless of when you go to Moria.</p><p></p><p>Secondly, if their is a Balrog in Moria or a Dragon in the Mountain, then if you go to Moria or go to the Mountain you potentially find a Balrog or a Mountain. It's not like you are going to randomly stumble into Moria or Smaug's Lair. There are huge freakin' campaign sign posts in front of Moria and the Lonely Mountain saying, "Beware adventurer!". However, quite arguably neither the Balrog nor Smaug are level appropriate encounters for 'the party', and quite arguably no truly dramatic conclusion involves a level appropriate encounter regardless of the character's level.</p><p></p><p>Thirdly, what does level have to do with a discussion of 'cinematic' gameplay anyway. Remember, <em>the levels of the characters alone is irrelevant to how cinematic - or not - an adventure or style of play is.</em></p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Celebrim, post: 4941427, member: 4937"] I don't think I'm the one that is confused. [I]Try and look at it this way: the levels of the characters alone is irrelevant to how cinematic - or not - an adventure or style of play is.[/I] Hense, E6 - which is a system primarily defined by its level limitations - cannot be said to be handicapped in producing 'cinematic' adventure or style of play because of its level limitations. Not if the Balrog used its 1st edition stats. The smaller sort of Balrog (we may assume that the Balrog of Moria was not a Lord amongst its own kind) would have had like 6HD IIRC. Definately a tough fight, but if you are have a magic staff of some sort (as Gandalf appears to) then certainly doable. The Balrog you know is a victim of stat inflation, of the notion that large scale 'cinematic' play can only be the result of larger numbers or that larger numbers are somehow inherently cooler. It's happened in every edition of D&D thus far. In early 1st edition, 100 h.p. was just an insane amount of hit points for a PC. By late 1st edition or 2nd edition, people could concieve of PC's breaking the 200 h.p. mark. By 3rd ediition, most characters of any class would concievably break the 200 h.p. mark, and you could reasonably expect to have a 300 h.p. PC's. if they were built to maximize hitpoints. I have no idea what the theoreticals for PC's in 4e are, but I do know that the hit points of the monsters have inflated again and that the number of expected levels have increased yet again. Look again at what you just said. Once again you've tied cinematic play to level. [I]Try and look at it this way: the levels of the characters alone is irrelevant to how cinematic - or not - an adventure or style of play is.[/I] Why would you assume that? Do you regularly scale Mt. Everest, or regularly follow the Amazon to its source, or treck out into the Great Erg of the Sahara? Do you regularly descend down the big drop into the depths of Fern Cave (because some of us probably do), and if you do do you consider this your mundane day-to-day troubles? Do you regularly face off against tribes of cannibals, thugs of secret snake cults, incarnated nightmares, insane undead serial killers, and monsters of legend? Is that what you call your mundane day-to-day troubles? Yet, what about that is incompatible with 'grim-and-gritty' roleplaying? In fact, it is precisely capturing those sorts of challenges that 'grim-and-gritty' DMs/players want. It's precisely because in high level play, players don't treck out into the Great Erg of the Sahara - they greater teleport, wind walk, take a flying carpet, etc. - that you do 'grim-and-gritty' play. Not because the adventures are more mundane if they are solved by mundane means, but because they are less mundane and more 'cinematic' when treking out into the Great Erg actually happens and the players are conscious of the great adventure that this represents rather than treating it as a trivial obstacle which is easily put out of the mind. Put it this way - the Fellowship of the Ring were never going to fail for any reason. Hense, the whole analogy is false, but to the extent that you want to site the LotR as canonical, then I would say that the closest the adventure ever came to failure, the root cause was dehydration. In the last sixth of the book, the overriding concern of the PC's was food and water, and pretty much every chapter is focused on their attempts to overcome the limited water supply. First of all, no they wouldn't, because in a good sandbox campaign and unlike a good story, nothing ever happens 'no save'. In something other than a story, its quite possible to traverse Moria without meeting the Balrog. In fact, within the story, it was also possible, because both Gandalf and Aragorn had done it before and concievably had the party been more stealthy ("Fool of a Took!") they could have done it again. But what does that have to do with anything? If I'm a DM in a sandbox campaign, I probably won't present the hook of an NPC coming to the characters and saying 'You possess the One Ring of Power' until I suspect that some path allows them to accomplish the quest they are likely to take if they bite the hook. However, if you go to Moria, there is a Balrog in the depths and that will be true regardless of when you go to Moria. Secondly, if their is a Balrog in Moria or a Dragon in the Mountain, then if you go to Moria or go to the Mountain you potentially find a Balrog or a Mountain. It's not like you are going to randomly stumble into Moria or Smaug's Lair. There are huge freakin' campaign sign posts in front of Moria and the Lonely Mountain saying, "Beware adventurer!". However, quite arguably neither the Balrog nor Smaug are level appropriate encounters for 'the party', and quite arguably no truly dramatic conclusion involves a level appropriate encounter regardless of the character's level. Thirdly, what does level have to do with a discussion of 'cinematic' gameplay anyway. Remember, [i]the levels of the characters alone is irrelevant to how cinematic - or not - an adventure or style of play is.[/I] [/QUOTE]
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