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*TTRPGs General
Justifying high level 'guards', 'pirates', 'soldiers', 'assassins', etc.
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<blockquote data-quote="Snoweel" data-source="post: 4942411" data-attributes="member: 4453"><p>You might not be confused but judging by some of your responses in this thread your comprehension appears to be lacking. I understand English may be your second language so please don't take this the wrong way.</p><p></p><p>The key to understanding my statement is one little word - "the levels of the characters <strong>alone</strong> is irrelevant".</p><p></p><p>The sentence reads very differently without that word - 'alone' - so its inclusion <strong>should</strong> have drawn the reader's atention. Clearly you didn't even notice it and I accept all responsibility.</p><p></p><p>When I say "the levels of the characters <strong>alone</strong> is irrelevant" I mean to say that it is the <strong>relative levels</strong> of the characters and the threats arrayed against them.</p><p></p><p>The implication then is that encounters that are too easy for the PCs, as well as encounters that are too difficult for them, make for other-than-cinematic play.</p><p></p><p>Another factor, that is related to the first, is that adventures that aren't structured narratively by some external agent (ie. the DM) will only follow cinematic conventions by sheer accident.</p><p></p><p>It follows then, that E6 <strong>will</strong> produce cinematic play when it involves mostly level appropriate encounters <strong>and</strong> when adventures are written as such, rather than just arising from a freeform sandbox interplay between the PCs and the various world elements.</p><p></p><p>In my (entirely anecdotal) experience, grim'n'gritty games tend to go hand-in-hand with sandbox play. This means that they involve an amount of too hard/too easy encounters (because the encounters aren't tailored to the party) as well as lacking any kind of adventure structure (because that's the opposite of sandbox play).</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I believe E6 is a D&D 3.x modification.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Even if I was running E6 I would give Durin's Bane over 10HD.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>'Cinematic' has nothing to do with scale either. I think the word you're looking for is 'epic'.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>To be honest with you I'm not a fan of the massive numbers either and I was quite impressed with E6 and Wulf Ratbane's Grim'nGritty system before it.</p><p></p><p>But after leaving 3.x and playing some Exalted I decided that it's just fun to play in games where super powered PCs fight ancient dragons and demiliches and armies of demons.</p><p></p><p>So you could say I'm a reformed grim'n'gritty snob. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I think, if you're looking at 30 levels through the 1e paradigm, then it will look overblown and obscene.</p><p></p><p>Personally I first played BECMI, which went up to 36 levels. After that I played 3.x with its 20 levels and so now I see level 30 in 4e as equal to level 20 in 3.x</p><p></p><p>The big difference I see between 3.x and 4e (regarding levels) is the levels of 'typical' NPCs. Where in 3.x the typical guardsman was level 1, I now see him as level 3 or higher. Even higher than that using minion rules.</p><p></p><p>Certainly I don't see 5th level as particularly heroic because that's only halfway through the Heroic tier; that character has 25 levels of potential to fulfill.</p><p></p><p>Then again, I didn't have my view of character levels set by 1e or 2e, which would admittedly make it hard to cope with the idea of a 9th level fighter that doesn't own a vast swathe of countryside.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Emphasis mine.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>All those things are cool, I agree, but let me share an anecdote with you.</p><p></p><p>I am a soldier in the Australian army. When I was in the infantry I pushed my body to extremes and did some insanely cool things. But if I'm honest with you, aside from being shot at from well outside small-arms range, the most serious threats to my health and safety were dehydration, hypothermia, vehicle accidents and snakebite.</p><p></p><p>None of those things are worthy (in my opinion) of being published in any sort of entertainment medium - only my mother found them interesting. Although if they'd occurred in conjunction with insane undead serial killers I'm sure it'd be a different story.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Not if I was running it as an adventure.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Yeah?</p><p></p><p>That's probably why Jackson cut it out of the movie.</p><p></p><p>Personally I loved the movies but found the books dull and weird - I could never get past the inane Tom Bombadil scene.</p><p></p><p>Incidentally also cut out of the movies.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Why not? If NPC peasants can be eaten by dragons despite their best efforts, what's stopping the same thing happening to 1st level PCs? DM fiat? So much for letting the dice fall where they may.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Sounds narrativist to me. Or are certain of your NPCs omniscient?</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Ultimately, how do the PCs know whether they can handle the threat? Honestly, how can they ever truly know unless they face it?</p><p></p><p>Do they run from every unknown threat? Very heroic.</p><p></p><p>Do they boldly step up and face the threat? (Because we are all sitting around the table for <strong>something</strong> right?) What if the threat is 10 levels above the party? Is it going to offer them a chance to get out alive? What a coincidence.</p><p></p><p>Why is it only level appropriate enemies that refuse to show the PCs mercy in sandbox campaigns.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Don't confuse "level appropriate" with "standard difficulty". There are extremely difficult encounters that are still "level appropriate".</p><p></p><p>But I maintain that an encounter overwhelmingly hard or easy can never be anything but an anticlimax.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Emphasis mine.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Snoweel, post: 4942411, member: 4453"] You might not be confused but judging by some of your responses in this thread your comprehension appears to be lacking. I understand English may be your second language so please don't take this the wrong way. The key to understanding my statement is one little word - "the levels of the characters [b]alone[/b] is irrelevant". The sentence reads very differently without that word - 'alone' - so its inclusion [b]should[/b] have drawn the reader's atention. Clearly you didn't even notice it and I accept all responsibility. When I say "the levels of the characters [b]alone[/b] is irrelevant" I mean to say that it is the [b]relative levels[/b] of the characters and the threats arrayed against them. The implication then is that encounters that are too easy for the PCs, as well as encounters that are too difficult for them, make for other-than-cinematic play. Another factor, that is related to the first, is that adventures that aren't structured narratively by some external agent (ie. the DM) will only follow cinematic conventions by sheer accident. It follows then, that E6 [b]will[/b] produce cinematic play when it involves mostly level appropriate encounters [b]and[/b] when adventures are written as such, rather than just arising from a freeform sandbox interplay between the PCs and the various world elements. In my (entirely anecdotal) experience, grim'n'gritty games tend to go hand-in-hand with sandbox play. This means that they involve an amount of too hard/too easy encounters (because the encounters aren't tailored to the party) as well as lacking any kind of adventure structure (because that's the opposite of sandbox play). I believe E6 is a D&D 3.x modification. Even if I was running E6 I would give Durin's Bane over 10HD. 'Cinematic' has nothing to do with scale either. I think the word you're looking for is 'epic'. To be honest with you I'm not a fan of the massive numbers either and I was quite impressed with E6 and Wulf Ratbane's Grim'nGritty system before it. But after leaving 3.x and playing some Exalted I decided that it's just fun to play in games where super powered PCs fight ancient dragons and demiliches and armies of demons. So you could say I'm a reformed grim'n'gritty snob. I think, if you're looking at 30 levels through the 1e paradigm, then it will look overblown and obscene. Personally I first played BECMI, which went up to 36 levels. After that I played 3.x with its 20 levels and so now I see level 30 in 4e as equal to level 20 in 3.x The big difference I see between 3.x and 4e (regarding levels) is the levels of 'typical' NPCs. Where in 3.x the typical guardsman was level 1, I now see him as level 3 or higher. Even higher than that using minion rules. Certainly I don't see 5th level as particularly heroic because that's only halfway through the Heroic tier; that character has 25 levels of potential to fulfill. Then again, I didn't have my view of character levels set by 1e or 2e, which would admittedly make it hard to cope with the idea of a 9th level fighter that doesn't own a vast swathe of countryside. Emphasis mine. All those things are cool, I agree, but let me share an anecdote with you. I am a soldier in the Australian army. When I was in the infantry I pushed my body to extremes and did some insanely cool things. But if I'm honest with you, aside from being shot at from well outside small-arms range, the most serious threats to my health and safety were dehydration, hypothermia, vehicle accidents and snakebite. None of those things are worthy (in my opinion) of being published in any sort of entertainment medium - only my mother found them interesting. Although if they'd occurred in conjunction with insane undead serial killers I'm sure it'd be a different story. Not if I was running it as an adventure. Yeah? That's probably why Jackson cut it out of the movie. Personally I loved the movies but found the books dull and weird - I could never get past the inane Tom Bombadil scene. Incidentally also cut out of the movies. Why not? If NPC peasants can be eaten by dragons despite their best efforts, what's stopping the same thing happening to 1st level PCs? DM fiat? So much for letting the dice fall where they may. Sounds narrativist to me. Or are certain of your NPCs omniscient? Ultimately, how do the PCs know whether they can handle the threat? Honestly, how can they ever truly know unless they face it? Do they run from every unknown threat? Very heroic. Do they boldly step up and face the threat? (Because we are all sitting around the table for [b]something[/b] right?) What if the threat is 10 levels above the party? Is it going to offer them a chance to get out alive? What a coincidence. Why is it only level appropriate enemies that refuse to show the PCs mercy in sandbox campaigns. Don't confuse "level appropriate" with "standard difficulty". There are extremely difficult encounters that are still "level appropriate". But I maintain that an encounter overwhelmingly hard or easy can never be anything but an anticlimax. Emphasis mine. [/QUOTE]
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