D&D 5E Justin Alexander's review of Shattered Obelisk is pretty scathing

[MerricB]

Well, the idea that most games are going to just have the same challenges at high-experience play as low doesn't seem supported in much of any game, in or out of the D&D sphere. The only reason it wasn't much of an issue prior to 3e is that there wasn't a full blown skill system, but it wasn't like saves and AC didn't tend to go up on opposition, so...

There's also the fact that D&D was designed with player retirement assumed at Name level. (Sort of)

AD&D 1E especially starts struggling at higher levels. And it slows down PC progressions significantly at that point.

Early AD&D 1E looks very much like bounded accuracy - with very, very few exceptions, monster ACs go from 0 to 9. (The exceptions are mostly demons and devils - otherwise known as monsters introduced in the OD&D supplement Eldritch Wizardry).

Cheers,
Merric

 

[Hussar]

I do wish that HP would also get bounded as well.

 

[MerricB]

I do wish that HP would also get bounded as well.

Non-bounding HP was the thing that allowed bounded accuracy to work. Sigh.

Cheers,
Merric

 

[Hussar]

Non-bounding HP was the thing that allowed bounded accuracy to work. Sigh.

Cheers,
Merric

Heh. You are right of course. I wish I was smart enough to figure out how to get both lower HP and bounded AC.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

There are a couple of types of skill checks.

There are the type that everyone should be able to do.
There are the type that only skilled people should be able to do.

People setting DCs don't always realise this!

There's a DC 26 Charisma (Persuasion) check in Dungeon of the Mad Mage (level 21: Terminus level).
There's a DC 25 Charisma (Persuasion) check in Chapter 5 of Descent into Avernus. (Chapter 4 has a few DC 20 checks).

I think these DCs are appropriate: the task is basically impossible, but a character of legendary skill might have a chance.

Cheers,
Merric

A Rogue with Reliable Talent passes DC 20 checks without fail as soon as level 13 (min roll 10, +5 stat, +5 Prof). A Redemption Paladin gets effective Reliable Talent with Persuasion. Any character with Expertise and +4 to the relevant stat passes a DC 20 check 50% of the time at level 5. Add in any other useful sources of bonus (Advantage, bless, etc.) and such "impossible" checks become routine for specialists and highly achievable for even non-specialists (e.g. Prof but not a main stat).

There's a reason Larian gave folks a bless necklace early on in BG3.

 

[ECMO3]

As much as I criticize WotC, I can't say that they always shy away potentially offensive content.
1) you have corrupt nobles in Dragonheist ready to sacrifice their children.
2) cannibalism and human sacrifice in Frostmaiden
3) plenty of mature themes in Strahd
You have also numerous adventures regarding mental illness. Demonic possession.
It's not like this is sunshine, lollipops, and rainbows the RPG.

As morally rehensible as sacrificing children and cannibalism are, people don't find those things as offensive as slavery and perceived racism and these two topics more than anything else are what Wizards has tried to steer clear of. Strahd also caught a lot of flak for its depiction of the Vistani.

Wizards has actually had to say that Devils are not all necessarily evil. That is kind of at odds with the actual definition of Devil.

If you look at many of the classic adventures from the old days, slavery was featured quite a bit, and maurauding orcs or Goblins or whatever was a common theme as well.

 

[Hussar]

A Rogue with Reliable Talent passes DC 20 checks without fail as soon as level 13 (min roll 10, +5 stat, +5 Prof). A Redemption Paladin gets effective Reliable Talent with Persuasion. Any character with Expertise and +4 to the relevant stat passes a DC 20 check 50% of the time at level 5. Add in any other useful sources of bonus (Advantage, bless, etc.) and such "impossible" checks become routine for specialists and highly achievable for even non-specialists (e.g. Prof but not a main stat).

There's a reason Larian gave folks a bless necklace early on in BG3.

Great! Rogues should be passing checks without fail. That's the game working right.

And "Redemption Paladin" is a pretty specific thing. I'm willing to guess that most groups don't have one. Bless is a first level spell. If you're burning spells to succeed skill checks, well, there are far, far more effective uses of spells.

Again, you have to realize that your experience is not universal and white board theorycrafting is largely pointless.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

Heh. You are right of course. I wish I was smart enough to figure out how to get both lower HP and bounded AC.

So, if I am understanding correctly:

Ability scores cannot grow much, because that is too much math.
Also, class features and powers cannot grow too much, because we need to keep a short list of classes and feature creep is bad.
Defenses and accuracy cannot grow too much, because that leads to weak monsters ceasing to matter over time, and also too much math.
Now, HP (and thus damage) cannot grow too much, because that's boring.

What, exactly, is there left for character growth? HP doesn't go up, so damage can't either. Features can't go up because power creep. Defense/accuracy and base stats can't go up because too much math.

I don't think there is any lack of intelligence on your part. Even a genius cannot solve a contradiction. You're trying to remove the last form of vertical growth, and horizontal growth isn't going to be allowed to pick up the slack.

What else could grow as the character does? It sounds to me like what you want is characters who never really change.

 

[Hussar]

As morally rehensible as sacrificing children and cannibalism are, people don't find those things as offensive as slavery and perceived racism and these two topics more than anything else are what Wizards has tried to steer clear of. Strahd also caught a lot of flak for its depiction of the Vistani.

Wizards has actually had to say that Devils are not all necessarily evil. That is kind of at odds with the actual definition of Devil.

If you look at many of the classic adventures from the old days, slavery was featured quite a bit, and maurauding orcs or Goblins or whatever was a common theme as well.

I don't think pointing to classic adventures from the old days is a particularly good look. There are all sorts of thinks in the hobby from the old days that probably wasn't a very good look at the time and certainly isn't now.

And, I really need a quote from WotC to show where they said that devils aren't necessarily evil. Sorry, not going to take that one on faith.

Lastly, considering the VERY FIRST encounter of THIS MODULE is marauding goblins murdering people on the way into town, I'm really not sure what you're on about.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

Great! Rogues should be passing checks without fail. That's the game working right.

And "Redemption Paladin" is a pretty specific thing. I'm willing to guess that most groups don't have one. Bless is a first level spell. If you're burning spells to succeed skill checks, well, there are far, far more effective uses of spells.

Again, you have to realize that your experience is not universal and white board theorycrafting is largely pointless.

Pardon, I meant guidance, not bless. It's a cantrip.

Also things like Bardic Inspiration factor in. 4-5 times per short rest.

Alsox2 combo: is this the new "white room" phrase? "Your stuff is not universal therefore it is irrelevant"? Gotta love being able to write off any dispute with "well I don't experience that so you're wrong."