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D&D 5E Justin Alexander's review of Shattered Obelisk is pretty scathing

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mamba

Legend
One aspect about scaling DCs is that the challenges for higher-level characters should be tougher, because otherwise it'd be lower-level characters doing it! You set DCs in relation to the level of the characters you're designing for, but within the world they'd be the same if a lower-level party came by.
I am not sure that climbing the cliff to the Giant fortress needs a higher DC than climbing the cliff to the Orc ruins. Not everything always has to scale with player level

Where the disconnect comes is when the world situation doesn't change, but the DC does, and that you should avoid.
agreed, things are as difficult as they are, no matter the char level
 

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Hussar

Legend
My group gets a ton of use out of things like Thieves Cant, Druidic, and Arcanic (the language wizards use in their spell work in my games), as well as other languages. But my group tends to like trying to communicate with every create they meet to try and stave off unnecessary combats or overhear interesting tidbits of information. It’s been a blast for us.

Languages? Sure. I totally get that. But only one specific class speaks thieves cant and one speaks Druidic. How often do you meet either that don’t speak common? Or some other language someone in the group speaks?
 

RoughCoronet0

Dragon Lover
Languages? Sure. I totally get that. But only one specific class speaks thieves cant and one speaks Druidic. How often do you meet either that don’t speak common? Or some other language someone in the group speaks?
Surprisingly often, not to mention the various different messages and tomes written in these languages that can contain useful information for those that can decipher them. And even if they can't read them themselves, they can often find those that can, leading to fun plot or story hooks, or allow them to come into contact with potential new allies.

Obviously, your mileage may vary when it comes to how useful these languages are, but my group and I have been having a blast utilizing their various language proficiencies, even the more obscure ones.
 

Hussar

Legend
Surprisingly often, not to mention the various different messages and tomes written in these languages that can contain useful information for those that can decipher them. And even if they can't read them themselves, they can often find those that can, leading to fun plot or story hooks, or allow them to come into contact with potential new allies.

Obviously, your mileage may vary when it comes to how useful these languages are, but my group and I have been having a blast utilizing their various language proficiencies, even the more obscure ones.
No, I totally believe you. I'm just surprised. It's just something I've never seen done. Druids and rogues aren't exactly known as scholars, so, I've never even considered that Druidic or Thieves Cant would have a written form. I guess it does. Having just finished up a Candlekeep Mysteries campaign, I can honestly say that language and writing played a huge part in the campaign, but, again, zero examples of thieves cant and druidic.

AFAIK, nothing in the Monster Manual speaks thieves cant and never has. Druids actually do speak druidic (who knew?) and two other languages. Hrm... I might use that sometime I suppose.
 

EzekielRaiden

Follower of the Way
So in summary: you're saying you can't play a warrior without calling it a [insert warrior class name here]? In game terms that makes sense, because a class' name carries with it all the trappings of said class; and just because I want to play a Thief as if it's a musclebound warrior doesn't mean it isn't still a Thief, with all the game-mechanical benefits and drawbacks that come with being a Thief.

And sure, a player can disguise a character's class from the other players/characters - I've both seen this done and done it myself* - but that's all it is: a disguise.

* - best one I've done as a player was a guy I once brought in as a "Ranger"; he was in fact a multi-class Thief/Druid, but during his (fairly short) career nobody ever figured this out.
No, that's the opposite of what I'm saying.

What I'm saying is, let's say there's a class called "Priest" and a class called "Templar." A player wants to play a St. Cuthbert-worshipping character, someone that is much more interested in beatdowns than beatitudes.

But they absolutely demand that they play a Priest. "He's a priest! That's what he does, he preaches the word of the Cudgel! Mostly by beating people in the face with it, but still. He can give as good as he gets in a fight."
"Well, if that's the case, Templar is designed to do what you want to do. They're both holy combatants, but Priests are fragile, wear cloth, and proselytize. Templars wear armor and hit stuff with weapons, so you'll get a better experience playing Templar."
"But I don't want to play a Templar. I want to play a Priest. Just one that fights, and doesn't do sermons."
"Okay but...you'll get all of that if you play a Templar. I guess if you build toward it you could do that as a Priest but it would take a long time and I don't think you would enjoy it very much."
"I just want to play a Priest that fights. Why can't I play a Priest that fights? This is stupid."

That is the cage of names. Locking yourself out of playing the things actually designed to make your vision for your character work, solely because it doesn't have the right class name.

Note, though, that there are things which can look like it, but aren't it. For example, telling someone to re-skin a magic-using class in order to play a non-magic-using character is a pretty serious issue, because there really are both thematic and mechanical differences between the two. Likewise, if the alternate thing is only a partial match at best, then the difference is not simply one of names, but of function. Telling someone who wants to play a Ranger with an animal companion to instead play a Rogue with Magic Initiate (Druid) doesn't work, because it's the animal companion they're after, not the name "Ranger," and neither Rogue nor MI (Dru) provide that thing.

So, to give both positive and negative examples (that is, ones that are the cage of names, and ones that aren't it), here's a few more:

CoN: "I want to play a moderately-armored, ranged and dex-melee martial character--but it must be Fighter, don't tell me to play Ranger." (An actual issue quite often in 4e; folks demanded the ability to play "a Fighter" in this way...even though Ranger was literally designed to do all the things they claimed they wanted to do.)
Not CoN: "I want to play a Warlord. That means someone who has a bit of healing, good ally support, etc. Do not tell me to play a Bard and just reskin my spells." (Issue is both thematic and mechanical. Spells have many mechanics that should not apply to a Warlord's actions.)
CoN: "I want to play a Wizard whose magic is actually magic items. I don't care that there's a class called 'Artificer'! My concept is Wizard!" (There is another class specifically designed to be the thing in question, but the player sees the character only as "a Wizard," not in terms of what the character is actually doing.)
Not CoN: "I want to be a Ranger that doesn't cast spells, but relies on his animal buddy." (An impossibility in 5e, despite UA efforts--all of which have notably failed.)

The cage of names is a serious problem in the RPG community. People are far too attached to the nametag on a class (or other things, like feats--that was a HUGE tempest in a teapot back when 4e was being worked on). They foolishly deny themselves the ability to play stuff that actually gives them precisely what they want, just with a different label at the top of the sheet. As a result, we are forced into making several classes--like Cleric, Fighter, and Wizard--these bland, milquetoast non-entities so that they can be everything to everyone (while in truth usually ending up being not much of anything to anyone!) If we could break the cage of names, if we could collectively look at what it is classes do, rather than merely the nametag designers gave them, we would be far more likely to have games we enjoy, classes actually designed to achieve things people want to achieve, and engaging gameplay that fits the needs and interests of most players.

Because, let's face it, as much as we love to play up how every human is an individual special snowflake, there are LOTS of pretty basic patterns and trends that can be matched. You can't get 100% of everything, but you can quite easily get 90% with a bit of effort, and more with a concerted effort, because us humans are often basic as hell.
 
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Lanefan

Victoria Rules
No, that's the opposite of what I'm saying.

What I'm saying is, let's say there's a class called "Priest" and a class called "Templar." A player wants to play a St. Cuthbert-worshipping character, someone that is much more interested in beatdowns than beatitudes.

But they absolutely demand that they play a Priest. "He's a priest! That's what he does, he preaches the word of the Cudgel! Mostly by beating people in the face with it, but still. He can give as good as he gets in a fight."
"Well, if that's the case, Templar is designed to do what you want to do. They're both holy combatants, but Priests are fragile, wear cloth, and proselytize. Templars wear armor and hit stuff with weapons, so you'll get a better experience playing Templar."
"But I don't want to play a Templar. I want to play a Priest. Just one that fights, and doesn't do sermons."
"Okay but...you'll get all of that if you play a Templar. I guess if you build toward it you could do that as a Priest but it would take a long time and I don't think you would enjoy it very much."
"I just want to play a Priest that fights. Why can't I play a Priest that fights? This is stupid."

That is the cage of names. Locking yourself out of playing the things actually designed to make your vision for your character work, solely because it doesn't have the right class name.
While I get the principle you're outlining, your specific example doesn't fly with me in that this player seems to want the benefits of both classes at once, and without the drawbacks of either. Sorry, bub, not gonna happen. Pick one.
Note, though, that there are things which can look like it, but aren't it. For example, telling someone to re-skin a magic-using class in order to play a non-magic-using character is a pretty serious issue, because there really are both thematic and mechanical differences between the two. Likewise, if the alternate thing is only a partial match at best, then the difference is not simply one of names, but of function; for example, telling someone who wants to play a Ranger with an animal companion to instead play a Rogue with Magic Initiate (Druid) doesn't work, because it's not the name "Ranger" that the player is after, it's the animal companion they're after, and neither Rogue nor MI (Dru) provide that thing.
Then the player has a perhaps-unwelcome choice to make: play a Ranger and get the pet, or play a non-Ranger and eschew the pet. Or play a multiclass.
So, to give both positive and negative examples (that is, ones that are the cage of names, and ones that aren't it), here's a few more:

CoN: "I want to play a moderately-armored, ranged and dex-melee martial character--but it must be Fighter, don't tell me to play Ranger." (An actual issue quite often in 4e; folks demanded the ability to play "a Fighter" in this way...even though Ranger was literally designed to do all the things they claimed they wanted to do.)
This one's not an issue for me, in that the player here would be told: "Sure, go ahead and roll it up!". I don't (and never will) have the Drizz't-based Dex-first 2-weapon Ranger archetype in my game, and archery-spec'ed Dex-first Fighters have done very well in the past.
Not CoN: "I want to play a Warlord. That means someone who has a bit of healing, good ally support, etc. Do not tell me to play a Bard and just reskin my spells." (Issue is both thematic and mechanical. Spells have many mechanics that should not apply to a Warlord's actions.)
Here I'd say "You're flat out of luck. If you want to do any healing you're going to be a caster, end of story. A Fighter-Cleric or maybe Fighter-Druid is probably your best bet."
CoN: "I want to play a Wizard whose magic is actually magic items. I don't care that there's a class called 'Artificer'! My concept is Wizard!" (There is another class specifically designed to be the thing in question, but the player sees the character only as "a Wizard," not in terms of what the character is actualy doing.)
Now that's a cool one. :) I can't see why this couldn't be done. Sure it'd be an oddball Wizard who maybe had very few spells in its book, and it would be reliant on the DM/game to provide a steady stream of items for it to use (and then hope the rest of the party don't want those items too!); but I could certainly see a way to building something like this on the Wizard chassis.
Not CoN: "I want to be a Ranger that doesn't cast spells, but relies on his animal buddy." (An impossibility in 5e, despite UA efforts--all of which have notably failed.)
That's a houserule/kitbash circling around looking for a place to land, IMO. It wouldn't take much to strip casting away from the 5e Ranger and give it a few more combative abilities (e.g. heavy armour use, access to a few combat feats, etc.) in return.
The cage of names is a serious problem in the RPG community. People are far too attached to the nametag on a class (or other things, like feats--that was a HUGE tempest in a teapot back when 4e was being worked on). They foolishly themselves the ability to play stuff that actually gives them precisely what they want, just with a different label at the top of the sheet. As a result, we are forced into making several classes--like Cleric, Fighter, and Wizard--these bland, milquetoast non-entities so that they can be everything to everyone (while in truth usually ending up being not much of anything to anyone!) If we could break the cage of names, if we could collectively look at what it is classes do, rather than merely the nametag designers gave them, we would be far more likely to have games we enjoy, classes actually designed to achieve things people want to achieve, and engaging gameplay that fits the needs and interests of most players.
Having the four basic classes as, well, basics is IMO a good thing both as an on-ramp for new players and as something for the casual player who's not interested in complexity. There's loads of sub-classes and alternatives if-when one wants to branch out.
Because, let's face it, as much as we love to play up how every human is an individual special snowflake, there are LOTS of pretty basic patterns and trends that can be matched. You can't get 100% of everything, but you can quite easily get 90% with a bit of effort, and more with a concerted effort, because us humans are often basic as hell.
This sounds like an argument for fewer classes and options, not more. :)
 

Lanefan

Victoria Rules
No, I totally believe you. I'm just surprised. It's just something I've never seen done. Druids and rogues aren't exactly known as scholars, so, I've never even considered that Druidic or Thieves Cant would have a written form. I guess it does.
I'm not sure, but I suspect it's the 5e default that most if not all languages have a written form. It goes along with the default that being able to speak a language also means you're literate in it.
Having just finished up a Candlekeep Mysteries campaign, I can honestly say that language and writing played a huge part in the campaign, but, again, zero examples of thieves cant and druidic.

AFAIK, nothing in the Monster Manual speaks thieves cant and never has. Druids actually do speak druidic (who knew?) and two other languages. Hrm... I might use that sometime I suppose.
The only time class-based languages (or, more accurately, loads of class-based jargon) ever come up in my games is with scrolls: a Cleric simply can't read a Mage or Druid scroll no matter how hard he tries, and while a Mage could in theory use Comprehend Language to "read" the words on a Cleric scroll they still wouldn't make a lick o' sense.
 

Hussar

Legend
we would be far more likely to have games we enjoy, classes actually designed to achieve things people want to achieve, and engaging gameplay that fits the needs and interests of most players.
Again, it would probably be very helpful if you would stop speaking for anyone other than yourself.

Arguing that 5e D&D doesn't "fit the needs and interests of most players" is untrue on the face of it. If it was true, then we'd be playing something else. I know you can't argue from a position of popularity when talking about quality, but, trying to say that 5e D&D isn't hitting the right spot for "most players" is a VERY hard position to defend. And, given the reactions to the Unearthed Arcana playtests over the past... is it almost a year now... and the very strong reaction by the fandom in defending what they like, again, making an appeal to "most players" is not helping your argument at all.

I get that it's not in your interests. Fair enough. And, I do understand and largely agree with the basic point of the cage of names. Hell, 5e was built entirely around the notion of burying the lede and making sure that the language was vague enough that it could be taken as both support and repudiation of previous editions, depending on what the speaker's biases are. And, absolutely, the whole ranger thing in 4e. Totally agree.

But, two things.

1. We lost this argument. We lost it a decade ago. We did. And we're never going to win this argument. Ten years later and we still can barely even talk about stuff like damage on a miss - note how WotC has managed to very quietly put that in and not make a big deal about it? That's because 4e cooties are still a thing. And, again, we lost. There's no going back.

2. Verbiage MATTERS. It matters a lot. That's the lesson of 4e. Not game design. Not anything else. HOW the rules are presented is the absolute most important, number one thing. All the bitching and moaning about how WotC's current releases are so different from what they were a few years ago have ZERO to do with the material. Nothing whatsoever. It's all 100% in the presentation. Hell, someone earlier in this very thread was complaining about how WotC wasn't using humanoids as raiders. :erm: Never minding that that's the FIRST FIVE CHAPTERS of this adventure. No. They have it in their head because that's the way someone presented it to them. People bitching about Dragon Heist not being "Oceans 11" enough when even the most facile reading of the actual module shows exactly why the comparison was being made.

The issue has nothing to do with anything of actual consequence. It's all 100% about how the material is presented. Nothing else matters. The worst, most ridiculous mechanics in the world are totally acceptable, so long as you dress it up the right way. And, conversely, mechanics that would make a game designer weep with joy are considered complete garbage, simply because of how they are worded.
 

Hussar

Legend
I'm not sure, but I suspect it's the 5e default that most if not all languages have a written form. It goes along with the default that being able to speak a language also means you're literate in it.

The only time class-based languages (or, more accurately, loads of class-based jargon) ever come up in my games is with scrolls: a Cleric simply can't read a Mage or Druid scroll no matter how hard he tries, and while a Mage could in theory use Comprehend Language to "read" the words on a Cleric scroll they still wouldn't make a lick o' sense.
True, but, in earlier editions, you couldn't read any scroll without Read Magic, whether it was on your spell list or not. But, yes, I get your point.
 

pemerton

Legend
I've lately come to believe that the actual high level differentiator is about the PC's agency. The move to higher level has them moving more and more from a reactive to proactive position. At lower levels you enter the dungeon and deal with what it throws at you, and then slowly you get the ability to ignore more and more problems outright or mitigate them via preparation/bringing the right tool. Eventually you can't be forced onto a reactive footing at all, and will start setting the terms on which you'll engage with your foes and problems. I think that shift in adventure/campaign structure generally needs more attention. We've talked about domain management, which is one manifestation and part of it, but that's not the only way it can go, or even the most common one in modern D&D; more likely you need to shift from presenting problems the players need to react to, to letting them decide what they want to do. At the most basic level, the PCs will stop encountering meaningfully threats in their immediate areas and will actively have to go to places that are dangerous to be challenged, which means giving them new motivators to be proactive.
If one were to start with this passage, but

(1) take out the references to PC level; and

(2) imagine that the players' proactivity might also have a "meta" element, so instead of the players having to declare actions to get their PCs to interesting places, they send other sorts of signals such that the GM frames them immediately into the stuff they are interested in; and

(3) expand the notion of danger/challenge to encompass a more general of interest/concern;​

then you have a notion of RPG play something like that which I would call player-driven.
 

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