Keen and Improved Crit Stack?

[omedon]

I thought I would run this by any rules lawyers out there.

Do Keen weapons and Improved Critical stack?

If thas so does this mean you could have two keen Falchion's with Improved Critical: Falchion, Two-Weapon Fighting and Monkey Grip (Sword&Fist) for two attacks with a threat range of 9-20 and 2d4 x2 damage?


That seems a little nuts. If that is a legit powergaming option as far as WotC lore goes, does anyone have house rules they use to cover this?

 

[omedon]

Just checked the original 3e PH Improved Critical listing and it said Improved Critical and Keen Weapons stack. That a double double triples. So it would be a range of 12-20

The 3.5e PH merely says it doesn't stack with any other effects including the Keen Edge spell.

Does this mean they took out the Double, Double = Triple rule in 3.5e? That it stacks in 3 but not in 3.5? Or is it just an ambiguous entry?

 

[Caliban]

Just checked the original 3e PH Improved Critical listing and it said Improved Critical and Keen Weapons stack. That a double double triples. So it would be a range of 12-20

The 3.5e PH merely says it doesn't stack with any other effects including the Keen Edge spell.

Does this mean they took out the Double, Double = Triple rule in 3.5e? That it stacks in 3 but not in 3.5? Or is it just an ambiguous entry?

It stacks in 3.0, but they changed the rule in 3.5 so that they do not stack.

 

[DiFier]

so if you have a 3.0 charachter that you are converting to 3.5 and you had both then you can either switch out a +1 weapon ability or a feat. At least that is the way we did our conversion. if you made a decision in 3.0 basied on a rule that changed in 3.5 you could use the 3.5 logic on the redesign.

 

[Pagan priest]

According to the 3.5 rules, a feat (ie. special training) does not stack with a magical enhancement to the sharpness of the blade. Unlike bonuses stack. I house ruled that as soon as I saw it.

 

[Creamsteak]

Heh... if I were converting a character I would have kept the weapon keen and the feat the same. They don't stack, but that doesn't tell me that you don't happen to have both. If you come across a keen weapon, it's still a weapon.

 

[Plane Sailing]

Another possibility with a pre-existing character (if you didn't mind straying into house-rule territory!) is to make the improved critical feat *generic* rather than attached to a specific weapon... increasing the threat range of all weapons used.

Probably too good though

IIRC Andy Collins said that they removed the crit stacking because "they wanted crits to remain 'special'". Personally I don't see what the problem was with having the two stack. Perhaps after they boosted the power attack damage for 2H weapons they got worried about 2H falchion critical damage? Who knows.

 

[DiFier]

criticals would stop becoming special when you were able to use non core feats and PrC Abilities to increases your crit range. a crit isn't special when you get one when you roll an 8 or higher.

My point for converting charachters is that if you had been using the 3.5 rules all along at 12th level you choose improved critical with your primary weapon when you get the gp to purchase another +1 ability for that weapon you might skip over the keen and go for something else. Of course if you wanted to add keen anyway that is your progrative.

 

[Scion]

Hate to slip too far into houserule territory ;/ Might ask this over there later, but what do people think would be the problem with the following:

Have one of the two: Inc threat range as normal
Have both: Inc threat range once, up crit multiplier by 1

I dont know, I havent checked it out.. think I will go post it now

In any event, if you are remaking your campaign to 3.5 definately let the player rechoose feats and skills based on the new system. It'd be more than silly to have a player who completely 'lost' a skill or a feat was completely changed to not be able to redistribute said skill points and feats in a way that made sense for the character.

 

[Storm Raven]

Hate to slip too far into houserule territory ;/ Might ask this over there later, but what do people think would be the problem with the following:

Have one of the two: Inc threat range as normal
Have both: Inc threat range once, up crit multiplier by 1

The only problem with this is that it favors weapons with a small threat range but a high critical multiplier over weapons with a large threat range and a small multiplier.