Keep on Shadowfell...how long?

[fba827]

are you planning on using it as an intro adventure to players new to the system/game?
are is this for people who've played before and just looking for a one-shot type thing?
that will affect your play time greatly.

having said that, you could do it if you strip out some of the (lesser) encounters and kept it for the plot and maybe 3-4 of the key encounters.

 

[Klaus]

I'd use the first kobold ambush, but include clues that led directly to the Keep. Then use the keep's first level, then skip to the final room of the second level, then choose one of the temples for the final battle (I'm not too fond of the final encounter).

 

[Goonalan]

Keep on the Shadowfell Stats for our game, just to note this was my third or fourth time DMing the adventure, all the players had never played 4e before, and only one had ever played an RPG (Tabletop) before, oh and we used pre-gens and played through every encounter-

And so-

Total Encounters: 24 (Combat 22, Skill Challenge 1 & Traps 1).
Sessions: 6, although the last was very short.
Time to play: 1145 Minutes, or 19 hours and 5 minutes.
Total Turns spent in Combat: 139.
Average Encounter: PC Level +1.55.
Total XP from Combat Encounters: 19859.
Average # Turns/Encounter: 6.32.
Average Time/Encounter: 52.05 or 52 Minutes 3 Seconds.
Average Time/Turn: 8.24 or 8 Minutes 14 Seconds.

More on the Encounters-

# Encounters PC Level -1: 1
Average #Turns/Encounter: 3
Average Time/Encounter: 19 minutes.

# Encounters PC Level (Same): 5
Average #Turns/Encounter: 6.4
Average Time/Encounter: 48 minutes 36 Seconds.

# Encounters PC Level +1: 9
Average #Turns/Encounter: 5.78
Average Time/Encounter: 45 minutes 7 Seconds.

# Encounters PC Level +2: 3
Average #Turns/Encounter: 5.33
Average Time/Encounter: 52 minutes 40 Seconds.

# Encounters PC Level +3: 0
Average #Turns/Encounter:
Average Time/Encounter:

# Encounters PC Level +4: 1
Average #Turns/Encounter: 6
Average Time/Encounter: 58 minutes.

# Encounters PC Level +5: 2
Average #Turns/Encounter: 9.5
Average Time/Encounter: 1 Hour 20 minutes.

# Encounters PC Level +6: 1
Average #Turns/Encounter: 11
Average Time/Encounter: 1 Hour 41 minutes.

Some questions...

Brief recap of the PCs
Dirty- Dwarven Fighter (Defender)
Grey- Human Wizard (Controller/Artillery)
Kaspard- Half-Elf Cleric (Leader)
Phrenic- Tiefling Warlord (Leader/Defender)
Winstanley- Halfling Rogue (Striker)

1) Which PC got attacked the most?

Dirty 200 times. (42.5% of all attacks).
Phrenic 111 times. (23.6%)
Winstanley 59 times. (12.5%)
Kaspard 54 times. (11.5%)
Grey 46 times. (9.8%)

Who'd be a Defender?

2) Which PC got hit the most?

Dirty 95 times. (39.1% of all hits).
Phrenic 56 times. (23%)
Grey 32 times. (13.2%)
Kaspard 31 times. (12.8%)
Winstanley 29 times. (11.9%)

3) Which PC took the most Hits as a % of Attacks?

Grey 69.57% of Attacks were Hits.
Kaspard 57.41%
Phrenic 50.45%
Winstanley 49.15%
Dirty 47.5%

4) Which PC did the most Damage in total?

Grey 1586 points of damage.
Winstanley 1339.
Dirty 1216.
Kaspard 781.
Phrenic 587.

So much for the Striker...

5) Which PC took the most Damage in total?

Dirty 726.
Phrenic 515.
Grey 218.
Winstanley 182.
Kaspard 172.

6) Which PC did the most damage/turn on average?

Grey 11.41 points of damage/turn.
Winstanley 9.63
Dirty 8.75.
Kaspard 5.62.
Phrenic 5.24.

7) Which PC took the most damage/turn on average?

Dirty 5.22 points of damage/turn.
Phrenic 4.6.
Grey 1.57.
Winstanley 1.31.
Kaspard 1.24.

8) Which PC made the most attacks?

Grey 251 attacks.
Dirty 145.
Kaspard 145.
Winstanley 132.
Phrenic 113.

9) Which PC Hit the most?

Grey 166 Hits.
Winstanley 100.
Kaspard 85.
Dirty 80.
Phrenic 65.

10a) Best Connection Rate for Attacks.
(Minimum 10 Attacks)

93.33% Winstanley Deft Strike.
81.25% Winstanley Positioning Strike.
72.53% Winstanley Sly Flourish.
70.37% Grey Scorching Burst.
69.57% Grey Fire Shroud.
68.18% Kaspard Turn Undead.
66.67% Dirty Charge Maul.
& Phrenic Leaf on the Wind.
65.22% Kaspard Sacred Flame.
63.64% Grey Ray of Frost.
62.22% Grey Burning Hands.
60.61% Phrenic Viper's Strike.
60% Dirty Reaping Strike.
& Grey Magic Missile.
58.62% Dirty Cleave.
57.89% Kaspard Lance of Faith.
57.14% Dirty Brute Strike.
54.55% Phrenic Scorching Blast.
50% Dirty Spinning Sweep.
36.36% Dirty AoO Maul.
& Kaspard Healing Strike.

10b) Best Connection Rate for Attacks (same table).
(Minimum 25 Attacks)

72.53% Winstanley Sly Flourish.
70.37% Grey Scorching Burst.
65.22% Kaspard Sacred Flame.
62.22% Grey Burning Hands- 45 Attacks rolled.
60.61% Phrenic Viper's Strike- 33 Attacks rolled.
60% Dirty Reaping Strike- 35 Attacks rolled.
& Grey Magic Missile- 45 Attacks rolled.
58.62% Dirty Cleave- 29 Attacks rolled.
54.55% Phrenic Scorching Blast- 33 Attacks rolled.

10c) Best Connection Rate for Attacks (same table again).
(Minimum 50 Attacks)

72.53% Winstanley Sly Flourish- 91 Attacks rolled.
70.37% Grey Scorching Burst- 108 Attacks rolled.
65.22% Kaspard Sacred Flame- 69 Attacks rolled.

Pretty dependent on only a few attack modes?

11) Overall PC Connection Rate

Winstanley 75.76%
Grey 66.14%
Kaspard 58.62%
Phrenic 57.52%
Dirty 55.17%

12) Which PC used the most Action Points?

15 Dirty & Winstanley.
12 Grey.
11 Kaspard.
8 Phrenic.

13) Which PC used the most Healing Surges in Combat?

33 Dirty.
24 Phrenic.
9 Grey.
7 Winstanley.
4 Kaspard.

13) Which PC used the most Daily Powers?

12 Dirty.
10 Winstanley.
6 Phrenic.
5 Kaspard.
3 Grey.

14) Which PC was reduced to 0 HP or less the most?

3 Phrenic.
2 Dirty & Winstanley.
1 Grey.
0 Kaspard.

15) Which PC rolled the most Crits?

12 Dirty.
6 Winstanley.
5 Phrenic.
2 Grey.
1 Kaspard.

Why is that?

If you need more statistical data (?) then see my sig, every encounter described in detail- who did what to whom... for every turn.

Sad, I know- but addictive (for me).

Cheers Goonalan

 

[Vaeron]

Goonalan, that's a lot of work, but very interesting. Thanks for putting the time into it!

 

[Korgoth]

You could do it in one day. It'll take about 24 hours.

Send the 1st level party right to Irontooth. I hear it will be a lot shorter than that.

 

[blalien]

Keep on the Shadowfell took us six four-hour sessions with six players, four of whom were inexperienced with D&D 4e. I added some content to the interlude, but the party bypassed the hobgoblins. So yeah, about 24 hours sounds right.

We started Thunderspire Labyrinth this week. We made it all the way through the Chamber of Eyes in five hours. However, the party provoked the entire dungeon at once and had one massive battle. I'm not sure whether that made it longer or shorter.

 

[Tsukiyomi]

KotS was the first module we ran when we started 4th edition. I was DMing it with only two PCs (warlock and warlord) plus the halfling rogue from the pre-gen section; they were later joined by a fighter NPC in the jail area.

I'll echo what everyone else is saying: ditch a lot of the unnecessary encounters. Maybe run the kobold ambush or something before hitting the keep, then let them do whatever in the town...but get them to the keep fast. Once there, look over the encounters and remove a lot of the unnecessary/grindy ones (there are plenty that fit this category). I probably cut out about half the unnecessary combat encounters, and I think we did it in about 2 or 2.5 five hour sessions.

 

[Goonalan]

If I were to run KOTS again I'd go for the following structure, or something like it-

Session 1.

#1 Kobold Ambush (either- or if you like combine the two in some way- obviously not all the bad guys).

#2 Winterhaven and roleplay- see the mayor and tasked with destroying Kobolds, already have quest to discover Cult and rescue the guy from the Dragon Burial Site.

#3 Dragon Burial site- rescue Douven (that's the one).

#4 Return to Winterhaven and either Extended Rest or on and after the Kobolds.

Next day, or else latter same day...

#5 Outside the Kobold Lair (with a few more from the 2nd Ambush if the PCs used an Extended Rest).

Session 2.

#6 Irontooth (add or more likely subtract as required).

#7 Return to Winterhaven, if they're still in a fit state to fight then straight to #8, otherwise Extended Rest.

#8 The Dead Walk Again, the Elf has pied-pipered the kids to the Graveyard, go sort her out. This will improve motivation, particularly if the PCs need more backstory- have the female Elf Range, can't remember her name provide it.

#9 Either Extended Rest (see above) or after motivational speech from Mayor, and more rewards offered (for return of those taken as prisoners by Bloodreavers (pre-empts Thuderspire)) PCs head off to KOTS.

#10 Goblin Encounter #1- Make Goblins into two Encounters, the first lead by Hobgoblin Torturer- use some all or many of the combined Goblin bad guys present.

#11 Goblin Encounter #2- lead by Balgron the Fat- use some all or many of the combined Goblin bad guys present. Note PCs can avoid this encounter entirely if they manage to contain Goblin Encounter #1, although it will leave their exit blocked at a latter date.

This also gives you as a DM a bunch of wandering monsters to use as you see fit.

PCs should definitely be Level 2 by now.

Session #3

#12 Undead Encounter- combine Skeletons, Zombies et al from all three encounters (Maze, Secret Chamber & Catacombs) have them attack in waves, and be very mindless so the PCs get the chance to destroy a shed load of them- they are for the most part the shambling undead. Lessen the strength of the Glyphs if you think they will get in the way.

Have Sir Keegan follow the Undead out and if needed stop the fight- and move straight into the Skill Challenge (which can be made easier).

Fail Skill Challenge and the Undead either fight on (all now Minions) except Sir Keegan, and the PCs get Aecris only if they defeat him.

Pass Skill Challenge get Aecris and possibly whatever Undead are left (Minions) now follow the sword-wielder, Sir Keegan gets to rest now.

#13 (Without Undead followers) Combine all Hobgoblin Encounters into one fight, probably best having initial Hobgoblin Guards and Spider, and then a few more join them- including Lieutenant (not too many- Grind warning).

Alternative

#13 (With Undead followers) As above excpet more Hobgoblins present and Undead automatically Hit- they're the old guardsmen, this is home turf- they're doing what they were supposed to do...

Most, if not all of the Undead followers should be destroyed here.

#14 Trapped Statue.

Session 4.

#15 The PCs probably want to take an Extended Rest about now, personally I like to try and kick them when they're down- so I'd add a meeting with either Balgron and his boys (if they were left alive) however the Goblins flee if the going gets tough, or else for a harder challenge have the Cube and the Corruption Corpses come calling.

#16 PCs take Extended Rest.

#17 Ghoul and friends- bulk out if needed with Undead not used from elsewhere, make sure the Clay Scout gets away.

#18 Cathedral of Shadow, as is or else add a few more unsavoury creatures, maybe make the Orcus Underpriest an Elite.

Try and get the PCs to Level 3 by here- and have them Level up via some narrative conceit, 'as the last creature in the Cathedral of Shadow dies the place is cleansed- the blood stops running, screams from below... and the PCs level up, but don't get the Extended Rest just the new powers.

These last three encounters from the Extended Rest should be PC Level +3, Level +4 & Level +5 (or more), something like that anyway.

#19 The Shadow Portal, as is... except I'd look at the Phalagar (which cannot be killed- only banished via the Ritual Skill Challenge) from Thunderspire.

Kalarel should be dragged into the Portal- still kicking and screaming at the end, Orcus's Exarchs voice provides the 'you have failed me for the last time... as for you... I'll be back.'

And goodnight.

Note if you had the Mayor of Winterhaven talk early in the piece about the missing villagers then the quest continues straight on to Thunderspire.

The critter encounters on Level 1 can be used (one of them ideally) if the PCs need to clear a bolt hole to take an extended rest (they find the secret chamber within), else- ditch 'em.

Happy hunting.

Cheers Goonalan

 

[Jhaelen]

I think at its core the adventure isn't that bad. It's just that all the goodness is buried under way too many combat encounters.

One way to run it would be a 'best-of': Just edit out the majority of combat encounters. Concentrate on those encounters that drive the story forward. I think Merric once posted his 'best-of' list of encounters on these boards. Let the pcs level up, whenever it makes sense so you don't have to adjust any encounters. In this way you could probably finish it in one or two sessions.

I'm surprised nobody else mentioned it yet, but over at the Alexandrian the module was analyzed in detail and a revision was created by Justin Alexander.

Using this version will probably require as many sessions as the original, but all of the major complaints about the module should be addressed, making it a worthwhile investment of time.

 

[Taed]

We did it in about 18 two-hour sessions, but we were all newbies, though we all had previous RPG experience. We did exactly one encounter per session, but there were two or so extra encounters. I would often beef up the encounter to fill the time and because they were often too easy or uninteresting, but sometimes, we'd run out of time even with the module as written. Our group tended to be on the slow side, though.

I made a fair number of tweaks to the module, the most important of which was to have Kalarel's Apparition (found in the online version of KotS) show up in about 5 of the encounters. That is key so that they know who Kalarel was prior to the final encounter.

I also used many of the ideas from the modifications over at the Alexandrian.

Another change was to give Ninaran a backstory that lead to her assassinating the Lord of Winterhaven during "The Dead Walk". That fed into my using Winterhaven as the base for future adventures, where the adventurers are highly regarded there, and their friend Douven is now the mayor. Splug is also going to be a reoccurring character, as he played a big role in KotS and was alive (and escaped) at the end.