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Keep on the Shadowfell Review

Phoenix8008

First Post
Further proof that I am doing the right thing by waiting till I have the Core books to make our own characters and THEN run this module with as many fixes as I can apply from reading all these threads. Till then, we will probably use the pregens to run a couple combat trials to familiarize ourselves with the rules some. Now I know to avoid throwing the kobolds at them for the first fight though as the shifty little bastiches will make things a bit tricky for a first combat. Thanks for the info and your time in posting it. :D
 

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Bayonet_Chris

First Post
Common factors

samursus said:
It is seeming to me, reading the KotS reviews, that they are either mostly positive, or slightly more positive than negative. The common factors differentiating these two seems to be:

1)Familiarity with new rules (read the forum threads a lot or die!)
2)The fact that KotS is NOT designed to work with the entirety of the D&D demographic

I see 3 major subsets of those who are trying to play KotS before the core books come out:

a)experienced DM's and players who are already sold on 4e
b)new players/less experienced DM's who are interested in 4e
c)those who liked 3.5 (or 2e or 1e), and are hoping that 4e will be something they can use and like

Right - my group was, if not sold by me outright, pretty open minded and willing to make the jump into 4E. The fact that I had been keeping track of changes and rules for a while ago (special thanks to Verys Archon and his compilation on this) helped considerably.

We didn't get everything right, but I made sure things kept moving and everyone had fun.
 

smathis

First Post
samursus said:
That being said, I do own the module, but from reading through it, and reading about others experiences, I am definitely waiting until my Core Gift Set arrives before trying it with my group... the concealment/cover/invisibility concepts alone have me confused.

You make some good points and I think this is a wise course of action, from my own experience.

In your demographic, I am definitely an A- (meaning between A and B) but I ran for a group of Bs and Cs.

My biggest problem was the organization of the adventure. It wasn't bad. But I don't feel it was helpful as a Quickstart.

I screwed up the Dragonshields' special abilities because I was too busy trying to walk the players through their powers. This was due in no small part to the formatting of the pregen character sheets. I don't think the powers were organized as effectively as they could have been.

Overall, I think that was a mistake. I'm planning on just hanging back, learning the rules and then seeing what shakes out in terms of groups, players or opportunities to run and play.

DDI sounds pretty good to me at this point. Too bad I really don't care for gaming online.
 

jaycrockett

Explorer
Mixed reviews here. I ran my regular group through 3 encounters. I have 5 players so no problems there. This group has been playing 3e for 6 years together, so there were definitely a bunch of 'but this doesn't make sense' comments, mainly around hit points, healing surges, and dying (which happened a lot). As a DM I really appreciated the encounter set ups, and the monsters were really fun to play, however the actual round by round had some 'fiddly bits' that I didn't expect, especially for first level. This game is definitely more complicated from the get go than 3e. I hope the complexity curve stays very flat as it progresses but we shall see.

Lot's of things to keep track of. Marking. Ongoing effects that need a save. Recharge abilities. The +2 to defenses from second wind. +2 attack from cleric buff, ect. You know how you're always forgetting that +1 AC from dodge? It's like that, but with everyone, every round. The game is just begging for some colored 1 inch tiddly-winks to put under minis to keep track of this stuff.

Three of my players aren't really used to expendable resources, the former ranger, rogue, and fighter. Here they are keeping track of encounter and daily powers, second wind, action points, and healing surges. I'm not saying any of these things are bad, in and of themselves, but it's definitely a step up in complexity, and that's coming from a 16th level 3e game. I guess that surprised me, coming from a 1st level game.

On the other hand, the monsters were a joy to run. They didn't have a lot of that stuff to keep track of. No healing surges and stuff, just a few distinctive abilites they could use a lot. I mean when's the last time you heard 'Arg, those damn kobolds, they're so weasly! Stand still!" or "OMG, that halfling with the sling is killing us!"

I gotta say these encounters were tough. Multiple people were taken down, and one may have died, depending on how the rules actually work. (She was one strike down when the combat ended, and the cleric was all out of healing, and people kept botching their heal checks. Could the cleric take 10 on the heal? Could she hit a tree to provide temporary hit points? Can an unconsious person use healing surges once the combat is over? That's what I ruled, though I did find it dramatic to have everyone pile on and try to heal her. She was less amused, after rolling what she considered a 'stability check' and being told she must continue to roll saves whist her incompetent comrades tried to revive her. Could they have aided the clerics skill check? <shrug>)

But man. There was, in a level 1 encounter, 2 brutes who each had more hp than any of the PCs and could take down a character in 2 hits. Plus 4 goons, a triple shot slinger, and oh yeah, the leader. There is a level 6 encounter in the first section of the adventure. I shudder to thing what that would be like for first level PCs.

The PCs abilities seemed really 'swingy'. That at-will magic missle doesn't seem so hot when you miss 3 times in a row. Or your sweet dragon breath does 1 damage. Or you miss with your daily power.

I'm still on the fence. I'm seeing a lot of stuff I like, but there are plenty of things I don't get yet. For example, removing iterative attacks is a way to cut down on die rolls at higher levels. But having AE spells attacks against a defense, you have first level characters rolling multiple attack dice a round. So have you really streamlined anything?

Plus I hate the fluff. All of it. Teiflings, Dragonborn, Alignment, Cosmology. "The shadowfell is a terrible place! But not really, there's some cools stuff in there too, maybe. But not this corner! It's baaad...oooh."
 

Ktulu

First Post
I've had no issues with it. The incomplete rules are a minor annoyance, but I've been DM long enough that it wasn't hard to factor in a reasonable house-rule for anything that we didn't have info on.

However, having only 2 players would definitely make it feel like a minis game. Even with 4 people, the first two encounters were remarked as being a board game.. After the players got into the game, though, it has become a blast! They're currently in the keep wandering around. I'm going to usher them on a little bit with a randomly passing goblin.

As far as the shifting wicked kobolds go... wow. I haven't seen so much excitement at a table as when the paladin wound up his daily to try it out and...the dragonshield shifted away from him. Cries of "What the hell, man? Howd they do that? and I call BS!!?!" followed shortly after the rogue got in a sneak attack of doom by "Yeah, show him what shifting away's gonna do! You split'em! Wooo!!"

Honestly, I've never seen a kobold fight be that exciting and that full of energy before. All in all, I'd say the module is a decent game, but an awesome intro to 4th ed.
 

SDOgre

First Post
More thoughts

Thanks for the feedback. You folks on these forums are helpful and insightful. Threre's a real sense of community.

I also almost wanted to put something under characters to keep track of marks and bonuses.

The cleric seemed under powered to me. How about anyone else?

Oh and while I thought surges were a good idea, that was when I thought they happened only once an encounter. Surging 3 and 4 times an encounter? What is that supposed to represent? It felt like the players kept putting more quarters in the machine... brought me back to the gauntlet days.

In fact I think at one point I said, "The warlord needs food badly..."

I liked the layout of the module in the sense of everything being on the two pages you needed for each encounter.

I liked running the monsters. Monsters in this edition are going to be a lot of fun. Surprising players with classic monsters with cool new, but logical powers will be exciting.

Oh, and did anyone actually say, "Hey these are minions, they're easy to kill?" My players never figured it out.
 

Griogre

First Post
SDOgre said:
The cleric seemed under powered to me. How about anyone else?

Oh and while I thought surges were a good idea, that was when I thought they happened only once an encounter. Surging 3 and 4 times an encounter? What is that supposed to represent? It felt like the players kept putting more quarters in the machine... brought me back to the gauntlet days.
I think it has been mentioned the cleric in KotS is... sub optimal. I ran the cleric in D&DEX and he was pretty good.

Indivual characters only have one healing surge per combat. However, the cleric can trigger two surges per encounter as a minor action (and with a bonus as big almost as big as a low hp charcter's surge). The paladin can also trigger a surge though it uses one of his own surges. Once again the Paladin in KotS stinks, IMHO. The DDXP Paladin had three lay on hands. The Paladin in KotS has... one. The race/stat/class mixes on the pregens just seem strange.
 

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