Kingdom of Heaven

[Mark]

Since this has the awkward chance to turn into both a religious and political debate, I'm going to ask people NOT to simply say you "heard" this or that from now on. If you have a link to a place where something SPECIFIC is being said, give it. If you want to mention a review, mention who the reviewer was and where their review ran. In this way people can follow up if they choose to do so and verify the legitimacy of a source. If you don't have a link, at least cite the source. I'm not saying anyone here has already done this but I want to avoid third-hand message board rumors from being propped up here as fact if it can be avoided.

 

[Banshee16]

Since this has the awkward chance to turn into both a religious and political debate, I'm going to ask people NOT to simply say you "heard" this or that from now on. If you have a link to a place where something SPECIFIC is being said, give it. If you want to mention a review, mention who the reviewer was and where their review ran. In this way people can follow up if they choose to do so and verify the legitimacy of a source. If you don't have a link, at least cite the source. I'm not saying anyone here has already done this but I want to avoid third-hand message board rumors from being propped up here as fact if it can be avoided.

Unfortunately, one of the main articles I referenced was in my local paper...but the print version. They also place their articles online, but you have to purchase an online subscription to get a login and see them. So there's no way to place a link.

The other was a big expose/interview I saw on I believe Entertainment Weekly...or the Canadian variant thereof.

There is one final article, which I can reference, which was posted on www.cbc.ca, discussing the fact that an author is suing the Ridley Scott, claiming that he stole the author's idea, and used his characters......given the majority of the characters in the movie are actual historical characters (though possibly a fictitious take on what they did), I'm not sure how someone can have copyright over them. Does this imply someone could have copyright over me someday? Maybe I should buy shares now or something

In any case, the article had a quote I found a little disheartening.....it mentions the writer did 19 months of historical research in order to write the script....but then mentions that he deliberately didn't read the books on the topic, for the precise point of not having a chance that somebody could claim that he copied their work. So, if he read no books, how did he do his research?

http://www.cbc.ca/story/arts/national/2005/04/29/Arts/kingdom050429.html

Any search of Rotten Tomatoes, the IMDB, or other sources can turn up plenty of other links to articles discussing the same topics covered in this thread.

Banshee

 

[Banshee16]

Damn, some of the reviews that are starting to pop up on the internet already are saying pretty much the same thing. From what I'm hearing, the movie started out distorting history to portray the Muslims as good guys and villifying the Christians. Despite this, the makers of the movie were still attacked by some Muslim special interest groups and even recieved a few death threats. So in response, Ridley Scott slanted the movie's perspective even further until the special interest groups were appeased. And, even though I'm no stickler for historical accuracy, historians have almost universally panned the movie for it's skewed history and romanticized view of Saladin.

I was really looking forward to this film, but now I'm debating over whether or not I should go to it.

I think it's less that the movie is villifying one group over the other, so much as that Ridley Scott was addressing religious intolerance etc. as a whole. Everybody did bad things, and he tries to show that in the movie....at least so go the summaries I've heard.

And it seems that for every person saying they've seen it, and finds it balanced, there's somebody else getting angry. Maybe that's par for the course, because it's a controversial topic? Could be the same thing as what they say as a general guideline for balancing rules in D20....if everybody thinks it's too weak, or everyone thinks it's too strong, it probably is. But is you get a mix of people believing each way, it's probably balanced.

Interestingly, IMDB has 507 votes already, and an average score of 8.0 on 10. Not bad....not bad at all Regardless of whether or not it is a slightly skewed vision of history may not be the point. Maybe it has to be skewed to keep everyone happy? There are plenty of "historical" films that have distorted history....U-571, Braveheart, The Messenger, etc. etc. etc. Didn't even "Gladiator" have roman soldiers riding around on horses and using stirrups, even though they weren't available to Europeans until years later? And crossbows in King Arthur? Weren't they out centuries after the 6th Century? But that doesn't mean that they weren't good films...

Banshee

 

[Mark]

Thanks for the info, Banshee16.

Unfortunately, one of the main articles I referenced was in my local paper...but the print version. They also place their articles online, but you have to purchase an online subscription to get a login and see them. So there's no way to place a link.

I'd be interested to know the name of the paper and writer. Maybe someone else here has access to it but is unaware it is available online.

And for the rest of the info, thanks, again.

 

[Banshee16]

Thanks for the info, Banshee16.




I'd be interested to know the name of the paper and writer. Maybe someone else here has access to it but is unaware it is available online.

And for the rest of the info, thanks, again.

Sure, it was the Ottawa Citizen, and I think it was either Thursday, Friday, or Saturday of the week past. I didn't get the name of the writer.....I could go look through the garbage to see if I could find it, but that would be a little less appealing than doing an online search

It was the front page article, above the fold, with a big photo of Orlando Bloom's face in chainmail coif and hood.

Banshee

 

[Ranger REG]

I'm hoping it's gonna be good. Although I do admit that I'm getting really tired of Orlando Bloom; he's beginning to replace Ben Affleck at the top of my "Overexposed Actors whose 15 minutes can't get over soon enough" list.

Meh. Orlando is much better than a couple of has-beens: Ben Affleck and Tom Cruise.

If I can just one whole year without either of the two because of Orlando, I'm golden.

 

[Dark Jezter]

Since this has the awkward chance to turn into both a religious and political debate, I'm going to ask people NOT to simply say you "heard" this or that from now on. If you have a link to a place where something SPECIFIC is being said, give it. If you want to mention a review, mention who the reviewer was and where their review ran. In this way people can follow up if they choose to do so and verify the legitimacy of a source. If you don't have a link, at least cite the source. I'm not saying anyone here has already done this but I want to avoid third-hand message board rumors from being propped up here as fact if it can be avoided.

Here's the January 2004 article from the Daily Telegraph that first revealed the slant of the film and started the controversy. It remains to be seen whether or not this article reflects the current cut of the film (Link requires registration).

Another one of the links I read was a Washington Times article that appeared shortly after the film began shooting. Although, again, it may not reflect the current cut of the film.

A recent New York Times article on the movie quotes "Muslims are bent on coexistance until Christian extremists ruin everything."

More reviews are bound to come out later this week. I'm still keeping my fingers crossed that the reports of pro-Muslim, anti-Christian bias are exaggerated.

 

[Mark]

Thanks, Dark Jezter! It helps a lot to keep things on track if we can point to where these reviews are and in what context.

 

[Allanon]

some quotes and the links to the reviews they're from:

Monahan's script, which leans toward thrusting expressions of machismo and corny emotion rather than any real character development. Like both Troy and Alexander, this leaves the film without a firm foundation; it's impossible to engage emotionally on any level. It's like watching a museum history film, although the plot is a bit suspect, since it's clearly been written to appeal to 21st century movie audiences, complete with heavy-handed moralising and obvious parallels to Bush-era politics.

One imagined that a movie about the Crusades would be gallant and mad; one feared that it might stoke some antiquated prejudice. But who could have dreamed that it would produce this rambling, hollow show about a boy?

Balian has everything to play for, but has nothing to lose, and seems so distant from earthly ambition, so keen to be a perfect knight, that its impossible to care about him. He’s oddly passive, falling into one situation after another, but handily endowed with all the skills that he might need – he is in turns a blacksmith, farmer, irrigation expert, surveyor, general, military strategist and politician. As a medieval blacksmith he’d be lucky if he knew how to read! His perfection and nobility make him, sadly, really dull – he’s not tempted by power, not even for a moment. He just wants to be good.

 

[Warrior Poet]

Somewhat related: I don't know if I'll see this movie (though in general I like Ridley Scott's work, and thought Blackhawk Down was excellent, not to mention Alien, of course), but an excellent historical fiction about the Crusades is Evan S. Connell's Deus Lo Volt!

It's great, told from the skewed viewpoint of a knight on one of the Crusades, referencing previous Crusades, and chock full of fascinating storytelling. It does a nice job of addressing much of the gray-area concerns surrounding the Crusades by basically saying, "Everybody does terrible things, and everybody insists their terrible things are the right thing to do!"

The language is very faithful to accounts from the period, and its like reading a wonderful tapestry, full of color and age and strange visual representations.

Highly recommended!

We now return to our regular movie discussion.

Warrior Poet

edit: Repaired homonym, retreating to hang head in shame.