Knight's Challenges

[Staffan]

What are the rules about learning new languages?

Take ranks in the Speak Language skill. That's crossclass for pretty much everyone except bards (there may be others in non-PHB books).

There's also a feat in, IIRC, Races of Destiny that gives you one free language per level.

 

[Kunimatyu]

Remember that the bard has magical ability, while the knight doesn't.

So you have the regular party. The wizard in the party, a Diviner, has one offensive spell prepared, a Fireball.

On one side of the party is the knight, by his lonesome. He's one level below party level. On the -other- side is a boatload of kobolds, like, 20 of them, massed in ranks. The knight has initiative, by the way.

So he challenges the wizard. Who is next on initiative. So, through no magic, the wizard is forced to do.. What?

Well, first of all, I've never seen a Wizard with only one offensive spell prepared(remember, Glitterdust is an 'offensive spell' according to the rules for Knight's Challenge). But, assuming that said Wizard has only one offensive spell, -and- that he fails a Will save(his good save), he'll have to waste his one offensive spell on the Knight. Unfortunate, but I'd hardly call it unfair or even weird. The Knight just caught the Wizard's attention much better than the horde of kobolds.

 

[Mouseferatu]

But, assuming that said Wizard has only one offensive spell, -and- that he fails a Will save(his good save), he'll have to waste his one offensive spell on the Knight. Unfortunate, but I'd hardly call it unfair or even weird. The Knight just caught the Wizard's attention much better than the horde of kobolds.

Or the wizard says "Damn, I'd better take out that guy first, but I'm not going to waste my fireball," pulls out his crossbow, and shoots at the knight.

The ability merely says that you must attack; it never specifies how.

 

[Jedi_Solo]

That's ability makes perfect sense to me. Maybe not for 'real life' but for what it is trying to replicate movie wise:

The two big brawlers in a fight looking for the other so they can have an actual challenge. I'm sure you've seen this in movies and TV many, many times. The big brute of a villain (usually carries a big mace or axe) calls out to Fighter Hero in the middle of a mass melee. The visuals then center on the two muscle bound fighters while all of the nameless extras slaughter each other in the background.

The big-bad of the example may not be a knight - but that is what I am thinking of effect-wise. The hero and the villain looking for each other in the middle of combat.

Some people have referred to this ability as a MMORPG 'aggro' effect. I agree and don't have a problem with it. From a more knightly standpoint it is the Knight making sure that the big-bads are going to fight him and not the wizard or the rogue. It's the tank making sure they get to do their job of being the tank and protecting those that don't walk around covered in metal from head to toe.

Buy why would the big bad answer the call? Maybe its ego, maybe they want to 'teach this puny humanoid a lesson', maybe it is simply showing off who is the boss or maybe it's just because the big bad was spoiling for a fight and this tin can is stupid enough to offer.

 

[jgbrowning]

I haven't read the ability so I'm going to ask a stupid question.

Does this mean a BBEG could put 4 knights on the other side of the party, have the knights challenge different party members and then attack with impunity?

Generally, I think any ability that a DM can use against a player that forces a PC to act in a manner the player doesn't want the PC to act should be magical and should require a save. Players should always be in complete control of their PC's choices unless magic is involved.

joe b.

 

[Mouseferatu]

While the ability is not magical, it does allow a save. Further, all it means is that the target, if he fails his save, must attack the knight in preference to other targets. It doesn't make them do anything else, nor does it eliminate their ability to think for themselves.

 

[Victim]

Besides the save, the "taunt" challenge stops working once someone other than the knight attacks the target. It's useful as a diversion, but will usually require very specialized tactics in order to be of any use. You can't really focus fire and use it.

If the BBEG can have 4 (or whatever) knights call out each member of the party successfully, then he could also have 4 guys casting Hold Monster or whatever other Will save incapacitation effect he wanted. A save versus "annoy" is much better than save or die.

The Knight's Challenge not being magical is pretty funny. People complain about how almost all the classes have magic abilities, and then they complain about giving classes good non magical tricks.

 

[Kunimatyu]

Or the wizard says "Damn, I'd better take out that guy first, but I'm not going to waste my fireball," pulls out his crossbow, and shoots at the knight.

The ability merely says that you must attack; it never specifies how.

Indeed. It's a good reason for a mid-level wizard to still hold onto his crossbow!

 

[Odhanan]

Sorry if this was brought up already - I haven't followed the General forum in a while - but did the Knight's challenge abilities strike anyone else as the epitome of crappy game design?

Hello there!

Indeed, the topic was already brought up a couple of times. For me, the challenges are an example of cool game designs that make a class stand up on its own, with its own particular abilities, rather than being pieced together from already existing material. Plus, these are abilities actually useful in game. I can't complain about that.

First of all... Why does everything need to be a swift action all of a sudden? I think that the challenges are, in many ways, quite similar to bardic music, which is always a standard action. It smacks of someone playing with new toys, rather than consitent game design.

Well. That's not really an argument then, is it? I mean, it might "feel like" it's playing with new toys to you, but that's feeling, that's not an actual argument.

What's wrong with swift actions, in fact? Nothing, IMO. So why not? Because bardic music works differently? But it's not really the same is it? You say it yourself: it's well, similar. Sort of. Not really to me.

Second, why is an ability that is essentially a mind-affecting compulsion effect classified as Extraordinary, when the Bard - the class that actually specializes in manipulating others with words - has only Supernatural and Spell-Like abilities? If it acts like magic (and IMO it does, considering that it even works on things that don't speak your language), then label it as magic.

It's not magic.

Third, I realize that it's a combat ability, and it should be relatively uncomplicated... but virtually every other mind-affecting ability and spell (from Charm and Fascinate all the way to Dominate) tends to have some circumstance modifiers listed, to reflect the circumstances it's used under. Also, the fact that you can't, for example, choose to refuse the challenge and end up with a morale penalty as a result, but are instead forced into a fight outright, seems extremely heavy-handed and artificial to me. (unless the ability was outright magical, but it's not)

Between making it more complicated with this or that modifier or keeping it simple, I choose the "keep it simple" motto every day, to be frank. So there too, I feel we won't be agreeing.

The heavy-handed argument I feel is actually the problem many people have with the ability. I feel this is actually a good decision. The truth is that the game is run by the DM, the DM can do whatever s/he wants. Instead (in appearance) for once, you have an ability that actually does something cool with no "ifs" no "buts" ... BUT a saving throw. COOL!

>>The DMs who don't like the challenges will fudge saving throws whenever they please anyway, we all know it. let's not be too naive.

It's not like any of these things are a threat to the world as we know it, but IMO it's just a prime example of inconsistent and inelegant design, of the sort that ends up unnecessarily undermining a unified ruleset. (and that after all the trouble they supposedly went to in order to make 3.5 more consistent)

Well here you go. This explains why I don't agree with you!

 

[Odhanan]

Oh come on now, for the first half the game, the knight has to challenge the big boss critter in the group.

Their ability is bardic music with higher speed, at the trade of narrower focus, lower bonuses, and

My GM made it ungodly weak when he ruled that the creature had to speak the same language as I do in order for me to challenge it. So far, all we've fought is NPC's that are too low levelwise to accept my challenges, and Monsters with languages I don't speak. What are the rules about learning new languages? I really need to learn Giant if I want to survive in his game...

Oh come on, now! That sucks!

I feel your pain, man.