Knight's Challenges

[Odhanan]

Generally, I think any ability that a DM can use against a player that forces a PC to act in a manner the player doesn't want the PC to act should be magical and should require a save. Players should always be in complete control of their PC's choices unless magic is involved.

It's not magical, but a save IS involved, once again.

Besides the save, the "taunt" challenge stops working once someone other than the knight attacks the target. It's useful as a diversion, but will usually require very specialized tactics in order to be of any use. You can't really focus fire and use it.

If the BBEG can have 4 (or whatever) knights call out each member of the party successfully, then he could also have 4 guys casting Hold Monster or whatever other Will save incapacitation effect he wanted. A save versus "annoy" is much better than save or die.

The Knight's Challenge not being magical is pretty funny. People complain about how almost all the classes have magic abilities, and then they complain about giving classes good non magical tricks.

QFT.

 

[kigmatzomat]

Meh. I didn't like kender taunts and I don't like knight challenge. Maybe I'm too emotionally stunted to see how a challenge will so enrage a person that they stop using proper tactics. Especially those inherently "honorless" races (e.g. kobolds) who believe in never fighting fair or a stand-up fight.

I would actually be fine with it if it was supernatural since that automatically violates the traditional laws of nature. Spells and spell-likes have multiple defenses (dwarven spell resistance, elven resistance to charm, items of SR, anti-magic field, circle of protection, etc, etc) but a mundane ability that transcends language and essentially limits character choices without taking into account that character's personality and nature.....

Nope, I'd prefer if it was just done in RP. I trust my players to respond to challenges in character-appropriate fashion. Knight's Challenge would work on Dr. Evil but Scott Evil knows better.

 

[Particle_Man]

I like the Knight's Challenge. It allows for a heroic feel that may not be realistic, but is something that resonates with me.

 

[hong]

I turned the knight's challenge into a skill use:

http://www.zipworld.com.au/~hong/ih/skills.htm

And see also

http://www.zipworld.com.au/~hong/ih/misc_feats.htm

 

[Henry]

Knight's Challenge would work on Dr. Evil but Scott Evil knows better.

Did you see Scott Evil at the end of the last movie? He was puttin' laser beams on shark's heads, man!

I don't have much of a problem myself, because I can't see attacking the knight to be "bad tactics." Besides which, the knight will likely get their butt kicked 8 times out of 10 they use their abilities, especially that "test of mettle" ability.

 

[VirgilCaine]

Meh. I didn't like kender taunts and I don't like knight challenge. Maybe I'm too emotionally stunted to see how a challenge will so enrage a person that they stop using proper tactics. Especially those inherently "honorless" races (e.g. kobolds) who believe in never fighting fair or a stand-up fight.

Ditto that.

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

The Knight's Challenge not being magical is pretty funny. People complain about how almost all the classes have magic abilities, and then they complain about giving classes good non magical tricks.

No kidding. When you take a magical ability, put an Ex after it, and claim it's not magical ... it's still magical.

I don't have much of a problem myself, because I can't see attacking the knight to be "bad tactics." Besides which, the knight will likely get their butt kicked 8 times out of 10 they use their abilities, especially that "test of mettle" ability.

The heroes of Stardust winning a hard-fought victory, slaying three of their greatest foes. Only the Shadow ("The Shadow? The Shadow? The Shadow!") and a few minions are left. The Shadow thinks about escape...

Knight: [insert generic medieval taunt]
Shadow: I guess I better stick around, even though I'm at half hit points and myy Greater Invisibility got dispelled. Oh well, I can shoot him at range.

End result: The cunning Shadow, veteran of a hundred battles, has to hang around the battlefield, so the other PCs kill him.

I think it's ridiculous. I think it's even worse when it's done to a PC, but this is a DM-heavy board. It just shatters the suspension of disbelief.

 

[Henry]

The Shadow thinks about escape...

Knight: [insert generic medieval taunt]
Shadow: I guess I better stick around, even though I'm at half hit points and myy Greater Invisibility got dispelled. Oh well, I can shoot him at range.

Actually, I see it more like:

The Shadow thinks about escape...

Knight: "Feel free to run, Shadow -- If I don't get you here, I'll get you at your hideaway, like a gutless mouse trapped in his hole." (smile)

Shadow: (fails save) Damnation, that cur won't leave me alone! He's already foiled both my best assassins and this is the second time he's tracked me down! That's it, it ends here, now!

or:

The Shadow thinks about escape...

Knight: "Feel free to run, Shadow -- If I don't get you here, I'll get you at your hideaway, like a gutless mouse trapped in his hole." (smile)

Shadow: (makes will save) Who does this fool think he is? (runs away)

There's still a save involved, and I don't discount even the most deviously-planning villains to make poor choices. I just don't see its not being magical as being such a downside.

If it's a PC, tell the PC who failed the Will save that the Knight has just made a veiled threat that they know your current plans, or have said something that pushed their favorite in-plot hot-button (threatened a loved one, cut off escape, etc.) A player who is properly playing their PC will likely take the line and run with it. It's not like you've throttled their freedom of choice, because a save was involved.

 

[hong]

If people don't appreciate their characters being mind controlled, perhaps instead of failing the save meaning that you must attack, have it inflict a penalty that can be removed by attacking. That way you retain the choice of what to do.

(pimp, pimp)

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

Actually, I see it more like:

The Shadow thinks about escape...

Knight: "Feel free to run, Shadow -- If I don't get you here, I'll get you at your hideaway, like a gutless mouse trapped in his hole." (smile)

Shadow: (fails save) Damnation, that cur won't leave me alone! He's already foiled both my best assassins and this is the second time he's tracked me down! That's it, it ends here, now!

No he doesn't. The heroes just killed his important allies and are going strong, while he's wounded. He'll try ... later. Maybe he'll try to kill the knight when the knight is alone. There's no way he's going to kill the knight now.

The Shadow thinks about escape...

Knight: "Feel free to run, Shadow -- If I don't get you here, I'll get you at your hideaway, like a gutless mouse trapped in his hole." (smile)

Shadow: (makes will save) Who does this fool think he is? (runs away)

There's still a save involved, and I don't discount even the most deviously-planning villains to make poor choices. I just don't see its not being magical as being such a downside.

When heroes make bad choices (and that happens), it's their fault. When villains make bad choices (and it happens, since they're not all geniuses), it's their fault. I don't think a villain should undergo a personality change because someone snarked at them.

I'll give an example. [sblock]I just finished reading Hot Springs yesterday. The hero of the story is Earl Swagger, former USMC Top Sergeant. The villains include Owney "the Killer" Madden (renamed Maddox for the story) and Johnny "Spanish", a "tungsten-nerved" Irishman.

Spanish is a former armed robber and leads a gang of five men. Madden hired him to get rid of Swagger, after 11 Grumleys (a red-neck mobster clan - I'm so making NPCs based on them!) armed with a heavy machine gun couldn't kill him. Madden correctly predicted that Spanish would kick Swagger's behind. He was right. Swagger lived, though wounded, but Swagger's men were slaughtered. (The story takes place during the Segregation era, 1946. Spanish cheated, as any smart villain does, by using "new fangled" infrared lenses. Swagger lived by visiting an African American doctor, since all the "good" doctors were being watched.)

Some days later, Madden gets tossed into jail after being set up by a rival, and Spanish breaks him out. Spanish says "this is a bit of a jailbreak and a bit of a kidnapping". Swagger figures out where they're going and attacks. Swagger kills all of Spanish's men, but Spanish is alive (and Madden is cowering in a corner somewhere).

At the end Spanish catches Swagger by surprise. Swagger's gun is jammed. Spanish undergoes a massive personality change. He tosses a pistol to Swagger, about five feet away (novel term, not game term). Then they go shoot at it. It turns out Swagger's gun wasn't really jammed and had a bullet left in it. Whoops. So Spanish dies.

Now if Spanish had used the massive intellect and cheating and otherwise dishonorable behavior that he had been using since the moment he was introduced, more than two hundred pages previously and demonstrated on multiple occasions (there's a lot of page time devoted to him), he would have shot Swagger right then and there. It doesn't matter that he had no way of knowing what Swagger's trick was. If he used that tungsten-nerved brainpower, he would have lived, then get to rescue Maddox and get millions of 1946 dollars, too.

It makes me quite angry to see villains turn into idiots for no good reason. It's a shame, too, as the rest of the novel was really good.[/sblock]

If it's a PC, tell the PC who failed the Will save that the Knight has just made a veiled threat that they know your current plans, or have said something that pushed their favorite in-plot hot-button (threatened a loved one, cut off escape, etc.) A player who is properly playing their PC will likely take the line and run with it. It's not like you've throttled their freedom of choice, because a save was involved.

Let me see. Threatening a loved one is so overused that a very large number of PCs nowadays are orphans, or are estranged from their families, and you still don't know how they'll react. (DMs complain about that all the time - never predict what a PC will do.) Maybe they'll figure they can wait an hour. Maybe they'll figure that their family members get killed if something happens to the evil knight. Maybe it'll be something totally different. Sense Motive - that's not part of the challenge, in case the evil knight is lying or "leaving stuff out". Teleport (to your mama's house). Etc. Dominate can take away someone's free will because it's a spell that is clearly mind control. It doesn't break the suspension of disbelief and can even be suppressed or dispelled if the party was prepared.