D&D 5E Knocked unconscious in water

[Hriston]

So what if the PCs get death saves? Even if they make it they're still unconscious in the water.

This is a first level party. What happens if the DM rolls well and the entire party falls asleep? It's a TPK.

Even with average rolls, at least a couple of PCs drop. What then? The party might have a healing spell or two, it's highly unlikely that they'll have any potions. What options do the PCs that didn't fall asleep have? You can't wake them up. They may or may not be able to drag one or two to safety, but water that deep should be difficult terrain. They will also probably be provoking opportunity attacks. I see no way PCs won't die.

It's a DM gotcha scenario. No thanks.

The advantage of death saves is to give their comrades even more time to get to them and pull them to safety, but I think 1-5 rounds is plenty of time to get to them and use an action to wake them.

I think you’re overstating the risk of TPK. Assuming a 1st-level party of cleric, fighter, rogue, and wizard, all with CON secondary, that’s a total of 40 hit points if the party’s at full. There’s a 0.00% chance that the DM will roll that high, which means at least the fighter’s still up, and it’s only about a 17% chance the s/he’s the only one up. It’s very likely that the cleric or rogue will be unaffected as well. So the most likely scenario is two party members asleep in the water for a few rounds while the other two use an action to wake them. I’m not sure why you think they couldn’t wake up the sleepers. That’s exactly what I would expect them to do.

That being said, I already stated that I think the spell is thematically inappropriate and would suggest swapping it for fog cloud.

 

[Oofta]

The advantage of death saves is to give their comrades even more time to get to them and pull them to safety, but I think 1-5 rounds is plenty of time to get to them and use an action to wake them.

I think you’re overstating the risk of TPK. Assuming a 1st-level party of cleric, fighter, rogue, and wizard, all with CON secondary, that’s a total of 40 hit points if the party’s at full. There’s a 0.00% chance that the DM will roll that high, which means at least the fighter’s still up, and it’s only about a 17% chance the s/he’s the only one up. It’s very likely that the cleric or rogue will be unaffected as well. So the most likely scenario is two party members asleep in the water for a few rounds while the other two use an action to wake them. I’m not sure why you think they couldn’t wake up the sleepers. That’s exactly what I would expect them to do.

That being said, I already stated that I think the spell is thematically inappropriate and would suggest swapping it for fog cloud.

Huh? If people automatically drown when they're in water because they're unconscious they drop to 0 HP. You could stabilize them with an action (and a medicine check) but they'd still be unconscious in the water. At that point another PC will have to use magic to restore HP, drag them to safety or otherwise hold their heads above water.

 

[Hriston]

Huh? If people automatically drown when they're in water because they're unconscious they drop to 0 HP. You could stabilize them with an action (and a medicine check) but they'd still be unconscious in the water. At that point another PC will have to use magic to restore HP, drag them to safety or otherwise hold their heads above water.

No, with CON 14 they are choking on water for two rounds before they drop to 0. During those two rounds they can be woken up as an action. There is no automatic drowning.

If you don’t get to them in time, though, then you have to get them to air to stabilize them. Personally, I would rule that if you succeed on three death saves, then you’re stable even if you’re still floating in the water.

 

[Hawk Diesel]

As far as the sleep spell goes, there is little danger of using it on the PCs in water. In the spell description, it specifically says that they wake up if they take any damage or someone uses their action to wake them up. I would say being dunked in water and suddenly being unable to breathe is on par with a nudge from a friend. If I were ruling, a player that succumbs to the sleep spell would fall into the water and immediately be snapped out of it. They wouldn't be able to get up or do anything about it until their turn (an enemy could use this chance to attempt a grapple or sit on them to prevent them from getting up), but the spell doesn't force someone to sleep through hazards.

Now, if someone is knocked unconscious and then falls into water, I would just have them roll their death saves with disadvantage.

Neither of these scenarios need to directly involve drowning rules or considerations unless the enemy takes the momentary opportunity to grapple a PC that was knocked into the water with the sleep spell.

 

[Hriston]

As far as the sleep spell goes, there is little danger of using it on the PCs in water. In the spell description, it specifically says that they wake up if they take any damage or someone uses their action to wake them up. I would say being dunked in water and suddenly being unable to breathe is on par with a nudge from a friend. If I were ruling, a player that succumbs to the sleep spell would fall into the water and immediately be snapped out of it. They wouldn't be able to get up or do anything about it until their turn (an enemy could use this chance to attempt a grapple or sit on them to prevent them from getting up), but the spell doesn't force someone to sleep through hazards.

Now, if someone is knocked unconscious and then falls into water, I would just have them roll their death saves with disadvantage.

Neither of these scenarios need to directly involve drowning rules or considerations unless the enemy takes the momentary opportunity to grapple a PC that was knocked into the water with the sleep spell.

It’s magic. The spell does what it says. Falling prone into waist high water is not taking damage or someone using an action to slap or shake you awake. If I was playing a spellcaster and you nerfed my casting of sleep like that, I would be none too pleased.

I also don’t get your ruling on making death saves underwater. What other hazard of water is there than not being able to breathe? The consequence of suffocation is dropping to 0. If you’re already at 0 and making death saves, I don’t get why you’d want to make things even worse by imposing disadvantage. It seems overly harsh.

 

[delphonso]

Right, this all came up just because I wanted an appropriately leveled elemental to twist around (dust mephit being the one) and it got me thinking about a potentially very memorable fight. Then, curiosity wasn't sated by the book.

Cheers to the helpful suggestions so far - I think I've got enough to make a challenging and memorable fight for a first encounter.

 

[DND_Reborn]

Right, this all came up just because I wanted an appropriately leveled elemental to twist around (dust mephit being the one) and it got me thinking about a potentially very memorable fight. Then, curiosity wasn't sated by the book.

Cheers to the helpful suggestions so far - I think I've got enough to make a challenging and memorable fight for a first encounter.

Cool! Let us know how it plays out and if it works well. Good luck!

 

[Hawk Diesel]

It’s magic. The spell does what it says. Falling prone into waist high water is not taking damage or someone using an action to slap or shake you awake. If I was playing a spellcaster and you nerfed my casting of sleep like that, I would be none too pleased.

From my perspective, its not just about mechanics. 5e was purposely made to use natural language and give the DM wide latitude in their ruling. Just because the spell doesn't specifically mention that submersion in water will awaken a spelling person, that doesn't mean a reasonable person couldn't make that judgement based on the examples provided in the spell that do cause a sleeping person to awaken.

If you want to prevent these issues, then that is what hold person is for, which is a second level spell. Which is another argument against allowing sleep to work in this way. It is not meant to incapacitate a person. It only causes them to fall asleep, it doesn't force a person to stay asleep. Whereas hold person, a second level spell, prevents a person from taking any actions at all and forces them to remain incapacitated.

Sleep is not meant to be a combat spell. It is meant to be a utility spell to knock out a guard to sneak past them or force some enemies to sleep to give you an opportunity to escape.

I also don’t get your ruling on making death saves underwater. What other hazard of water is there than not being able to breathe? The consequence of suffocation is dropping to 0. If you’re already at 0 and making death saves, I don’t get why you’d want to make things even worse by imposing disadvantage. It seems overly harsh.

Falling Unconscious
If damage reduces you to 0 Hit Points and fails to kill you, you fall Unconscious (see Conditions ). This unconsciousness ends if you regain any Hit Points.

Death Saving Throws
Whenever you start Your Turn with 0 Hit Points, you must make a Special saving throw, called a death saving throw, to determine whether you creep closer to death or hang onto life. Unlike other Saving Throws, this one isn’t tied to any ability score. You are in the hands of fate now, aided only by Spells and features that improve your chances of succeeding on a saving throw.

Roll a d20: If the roll is 10 or higher, you succeed. Otherwise, you fail. A success or failure has no effect by itself. On your third success, you become stable (see below). On your third failure, you die. The successes and failures don’t need to be consecutive; keep track of both until you collect three of a kind. The number of both is reset to zero when you regain any Hit Points or become stable.

Rolling 1 or 20: When you make a death saving throw and roll a 1 on The D20, it counts as two failures. If you roll a 20 on The D20, you regain 1 hit point.

Damage at 0 Hit Points: If you take any damage while you have 0 Hit Points, you suffer a death saving throw failure. If the damage is from a critical hit, you suffer two failures instead. If the damage equals or exceeds your hit point maximum, you suffer Instant Death.

Unconscious
An unconscious creature is incapacitated (see the condition), can’t move or speak, and is unaware of its surroundings The creature drops whatever it’s holding and falls prone. The creature automatically fails Strength and Dexterity Saving Throws. Attack rolls against the creature have advantage. Any Attack that hits the creature is a critical hit if the attacker is within 5 feet of the creature.

Suffocating
A creature can hold its breath for a number of minutes equal to 1 + its Constitution modifier (minimum of 30 seconds).

When a creature runs out of breath or is choking, it can survive for a number of rounds equal to its Constitution modifier (minimum of 1 round). At the start of its next turn, it drops to 0 Hit Points and is dying, and it can’t regain Hit Points or be stabilized until it can breathe again.

For example, a creature with a Constitution of 14 can hold its breath for 3 minutes. If it starts suffocating, it has 2 rounds to reach air before it drops to 0 Hit Points.

I brought all these things up to demonstrate that if an unconscious person is hit with an attack, they automatically fail two death saving throws, because they took damage and attacks against them are automatically escalated to a critical. And even a creature with 1,000 hit points immediately drops to zero if they begin to suffocate.

In my mind an unconscious person is still alive, and thus needs to breath. Being submerged in water, even if it does not directly do damage with the mechanics of 5e, does present an additional hazard that a reasonable DM would consider in their adjudication. Personally, I think either having disadvantage on Death Saves OR automatic failure as long as the unconscious character is submerged are both reasonable rulings (especially since choking in water results in immediately going to 0 hit points, regardless of how many hit points you started with). You may disagree with them, which is fine, but there is nothing unreasonable about the rulings I presented based on my interpretation of the RAW (Rules as Written), RAI (Rules as Intended), and RAF (Rules as Fun).

 

[Eltab]

When my group played HotDQ, our Rogue got hit by the bullywug 'hallucinate' trap and ran for the pond to hide. My Paladin went after her, paused a moment to prepare, and jumped into 30 feet of water wearing Full Plate. I caught up to her just as she ran out of breath, and the group hauled the two of us back to the surface. Thank the gods that Lay on Hands can be spent 1HP at a time. (That 'prepare' involved tying a 50 foot rope under my shoulders and around my breastplate.). This took 45 minutes IRL, and persuaded me that the 'hold breath' rules unduly trap CONmod = 0 PCs.

 

[Hriston]

From my perspective, its not just about mechanics. 5e was purposely made to use natural language and give the DM wide latitude in their ruling. Just because the spell doesn't specifically mention that submersion in water will awaken a spelling person, that doesn't mean a reasonable person couldn't make that judgement based on the examples provided in the spell that do cause a sleeping person to awaken.

If you want to prevent these issues, then that is what hold person is for, which is a second level spell. Which is another argument against allowing sleep to work in this way. It is not meant to incapacitate a person. It only causes them to fall asleep, it doesn't force a person to stay asleep. Whereas hold person, a second level spell, prevents a person from taking any actions at all and forces them to remain incapacitated.

Sleep is not meant to be a combat spell. It is meant to be a utility spell to knock out a guard to sneak past them or force some enemies to sleep to give you an opportunity to escape.





I brought all these things up to demonstrate that if an unconscious person is hit with an attack, they automatically fail two death saving throws, because they took damage and attacks against them are automatically escalated to a critical. And even a creature with 1,000 hit points immediately drops to zero if they begin to suffocate.

In my mind an unconscious person is still alive, and thus needs to breath. Being submerged in water, even if it does not directly do damage with the mechanics of 5e, does present an additional hazard that a reasonable DM would consider in their adjudication. Personally, I think either having disadvantage on Death Saves OR automatic failure as long as the unconscious character is submerged are both reasonable rulings (especially since choking in water results in immediately going to 0 hit points, regardless of how many hit points you started with). You may disagree with them, which is fine, but there is nothing unreasonable about the rulings I presented based on my interpretation of the RAW (Rules as Written), RAI (Rules as Intended), and RAF (Rules as Fun).

I agree with you about DM latitude. It seems to me, though, that rulings like the ones you’ve given here make the game less predictable for players. If you’re going to adjudicate sleep, not according to the spell description, but according to a principle that, as far as I can make it out from what you’ve said here, is that anything that can wake you up from normal sleep will also wake you up from magical sleep, I would want to know that up front so I could avoid taking that spell or using it in the wrong situation. Likewise, if dropping to 0 while submerged in water incurs disadvantage on death saves, I would want that information going into any situation where that’s a possibility because it makes water more dangerous than it would be otherwise, and I should be given the opportunity to avoid that.

So while I support the DM being empowered to make rulings in fulfilling the role of the game’s adjudicator, I think rulings that disempower players or worse, come off as displays of DM power, are undesirable.