Knowledge checks and what constitutes a retry.

[Dross]

Part 1:
By RAW you cannot retry to know something, you either do or you don’t, but was thinking that by logic (a dangerous proposition at the best of times and maybe more so here ) there could be some case to allow another knowledge check given specific circumstances. For an example:

Try 1: Attacked by a creature, role the appropriate knowledge check (no take 10, no aid another) to remember information about it.
Try 2: Later when there is time to think about the creature and talk with the rest of the party (can take 10, have others use Aid Another).
Try 3: Find a library and research the creature.

Are these separate attempts considered reties? Strictly speaking I’d they are retries, but would have a “looser” interpretation and allow another attempt (as would another DM I play with).

So, by RAW is this valid? Are tries 1, 2 and 3 sufficiently different for 2 and 3 not to be a retry? Personally I’d have 3 not be a retry, and am ready to house rule 2 sufficiently different to not be.

Part II

Of course if the three attempts were allowed there would have to be some ad hoc/house rules.
Try 2:
If try 2 roll < try 1, no new information.
If try 2 roll > try 1, start with information remembered in try 1 (which may mean that nothing new is learnt anyway).

Try 3:
Run the same as try 2, with circumstance modifiers depending on the quality of the library.

What do people think of these house rules for further attempts, provided that you agree with Part I.

What about enforcing a take 10 check on try 2?

thanks in advance.

 

[Li Shenron]

I completely disagree with the idea that a Knowledge check has anything to do with remembering.

I may or may not accept the idea of using a Knowledge check to research something, but if you use it this way, I completely disagree about letting such a check following the same mechanic of a regular knowledge check, and make it work in a different way (just like Spellcraft isn't always the same action for instance).

 

[Orm]

I would say you either know it or you don`t. So no retry. But as a houserule I could see a similar situation as with spellcraft:

From the SRD:
Learn a spell from a spellbook or scroll (wizard only). No retry for that spell until you gain at least 1 rank in Spellcraft (even if you find another source to try to learn the spell from).

As soon as you gain another rank in knowledge (?), you can make a retry.

For the other options, when talking to your party/other people, they can make a knowledge (?) check. When in a library, ask the librarian for help. Gather information may also help when talking to other people.

Orm

 

[Dross]

I would say you either know it or you don`t. So no retry. But as a houserule I could see a similar situation as with spellcraft:As soon as you gain another rank in knowledge (?), you can make a retry.

For the other options, when talking to your party/other people, they can make a knowledge (?) check.

i thought that gaining another rank in the knowledge skill allowed you to have another try anyway.

for the other options, assume that all the people made knowledge check initially, then they got together for the talk afterwards. (the intent of the question wasn't whether to get other people to do the check but the same person).

Dross

 

[Orm]

i thought that gaining another rank in the knowledge skill allowed you to have another try anyway.

I couldn´t find this rule in the SRD nor the Errata or FAQ. But maybe someone can help me out.

 

[Lord Pendragon]

This is how I'd rule it.

Try1: This is a regular knowledge check.

Try2: I'd allow this check, but using the same die roll as Try1. So basically you would be using the results of Try1 + Aid Another bonuses. You only get one chance to know something, whether you decide to make a check in the middle of battle, or wait until after and Take 10. You don't get a chance to Take 10 after the fact, any more than a thief can choose to Take 10 after he flubs a Disable Device check.

Try3: This isn't a Knowledge check at all. It's a Gather Information check, or Profession (Librarian) if you happen to have it.

i thought that gaining another rank in the knowledge skill allowed you to have another try anyway.

We've always played it that way too. I figure that the particular bit of info you want to know about may have been included in the knowledge represented by the new rank(s). But I have no idea if it's anywhere in the RAW, or simply a House Rule our group has taken for granted...

 

[RigaMortus2]

I would allow a reroll for a Knowledge check from a previously failed roll when at least one of two conditions are met:

1) When the character levels
2) When the character adds at least 1 more rank to that knowledge skill

 

[Li Shenron]

I would allow a reroll for a Knowledge check from a previously failed roll when at least one of two conditions are met:

1) When the character levels
2) When the character adds at least 1 more rank to that knowledge skill

I would probably allow it as well (on my discretion) on a similar basis, and even less tied to the class mechanics:

3) When a long time enough has passed to assume the character has read more books
4) When some event in the story provided the character some exposition to more knowledge

I like the 2) you mention and thought about it already, but I would be less positive on the 1).

 

[Orm]

3) When a long time enough has passed to assume the character has read more books

I would say reading enough books = gaining another rank in knowledge.

 

[Li Shenron]

I would say reading enough books = gaining another rank in knowledge.

Absolutely, but I specified a more loose case just because by the RAW, you cannot read more books or gain more knowledge unless you first kill some orcs and get xp