Knowledge (monster type) chart (REVISITED)

[Steven McRownt]

Knowledge (monster type) Chart: A new use for the knowledge skill
By Steven McRownt

This table is intended to give to the characters a chance to fully use their damage bonuses
against creatures that normally have 'immunities'. As a knowledge skill, the warrior group
of classes will have to spend a lot of skill points to gain significant result,
while spellcasters will not gain too much on this investment...

Basically, each time a character face a monster on which has been acknowledged,
he can try to exactly remember how effectively fight versus it (it's as he is remembering
the teaching of a Van Richten's guide or the like); take 10 or 20 for that is to DM's
discretion (the fighter/cleric of the group can study all the information on someone that
could be a disguised willing undead), or he can suffer penalties (a range from -3 to -10
depending on the situation) if he stumble on that disguised willing undead, but he has to
start immediately the fight.

You should consider the hypothesis, in the case of a pack of zombies, to repeat the check
for each of them, otherwise the skill could be unbalanced (I've explained this to my group
because in a pack of zombies can be hidden a Mohrg who's controlling them). A quicker way
to solve the problem could be throw the dice once (and add or subtract all the modifiers)
and check on the table and see the result: the charcater will recognize ALL the undead he's
examining within' his score (a total of 16 will be enough to successfully understand how
to exploit the opponents' weaknesses of all the undead thas have from less of 1 to 9 HD,
but no more)

Another malus to the diffculty Class is given to the turn resistance of the undead (as
Allip's +2 turn resistance, to reflect their particular immunities to positive energy
and material of the prime plane) (thank's to for the advice!).

The Table:
Monster's HitDice Difficulty Class
Less of 1 to 1 6
2-3 8
4-5 10
6-7 12
8-9 14
10-11 17
12-13 20
14-15 23
... ...

If you want to continue to scale up the table (for Epic Undead!!!), you have to follow
this simple mathematical progression: for each 10 HD the difficulty class rise up
on 1 for each step (2 for 1-10 HD monsters, 3 for 10-20 HD, 4 for 21-30 HD, and so on!!!!)

To use this skill the character have to watch the undead for at least 3 rounds, and then
he can try to recognize it. He can fight in those rounds (after all he's trying to understand
their weakness), but this implies another -2 malus to the check (i know that all this malus
let this skill very difficult to use, but we're talking to make critical hits and sneak
attacks to dead corpse moving around!). Fail the check means also that you can't retry on
the same undead/group of undead.


(chacal u should be happy because 4 this one u have not to download anything!)

Steven McRownt

 

[Chacal]

chacal u should be happy because 4 this one u have not to download anything!)

Yep


A couple of questions:

- What kind of "immunities" do you cancel with a successful check ?
it's a bit unclear to me.

- Why coupling DC with HD ? why not CR, which could be more relevant for the "power" of a creature. In fact, perhaps the HD part of the CR is the less relevant information about how "special" a monster is.


Maybe you could add some malus to the check if the creature is an outsider ( counter-balanced with a synergy bonus from knowledge(the planes))
I like the idea of using knowledge monster to get some edge over some encounters, though. But It shouldn't beat the "favored enemy" ability, just complement it.



Chacal

 

[Steven McRownt]

"- What kind of "immunities" do you cancel with a successful check ? "

Well, that's the problem of my poor english. With this new skill you could overcome the undead immunities to crits (and for the same idea, sneak attack and ranger damage bonus)

"- Why coupling DC with HD ? why not CR, which could be more relevant for the "power" of a creature. In fact, perhaps the HD part of the CR is the less relevant information about how "special" a monster is. "

Yes, using HD is something that in 3e had lost his meaning. The CR is more relevant for the new core rules. So, for now just use the word CR instead od HD, then i will see to change a little bit the table!!!!

"Maybe you could add some malus to the check if the creature is an outsider ( counter-balanced with a synergy bonus from knowledge(the planes)) "

The idea of a fluctuating malus (the -3 to -10) is a way to give to a Dm a good discrection without hearing any of his players complaining!!!!!

"I like the idea of using knowledge monster to get some edge over some encounters, though. But It shouldn't beat the "favored enemy" ability, just complement it. "

Chacal, the idea comes from that. I was studyin' a way to let the favored enemy bonuses of a ranger works even against this special kind of creature and then i realized that could work as a general rule. In fact i should add to the house rule that a ranger's favored enemy bonuses on skills is also useful for that one (and perhaps make it a class skill for him: what u think?)

Steven McRownt

(p.s. why i don't see anymore my signature?)

 

[niko718]

Below is an example of how we have used the Knowledge monster (in this case undead) and the knowledge planes to 3rd edition (taken and modified from the second edition). As for the DC check to the type of monster, it is usually 10+ the creature's CR rating. The difference is that the creature categories are broken down to parts and not just any creature. Meaning, if someone specialized in knowing undead creatures, that character would only know about those creatures...either from previous experience, learned knowledge or anything similar. As for creatures that are not met that one has not studied or heard, then the character is not prepared. Against previous met creatures, that are had been faught before, the character needs to make an spot check or appraisal check (with DC depending on situation) and see if he remembers or recognizes that creature.


Knowledge (Undead) (Int.): A character with this skill is versed in the lore of undead creatures. This skill may be used to determine the probable lairs, dining habits and history of such a creature. Whenever a character with this skill confronts an undead, he or she may be able to specifically identify the creature (discerning between a ghast and a common ghoul for instance). In addition, providing the character makes another successful skill check, he/she recalls the creature’s specific weakness and natural defenses or immunities. At the DM’s discretion, a failed skill check (in either of the cases) will reveal misleading or even completely erroneous information, which may actually strengthen or otherwise benefit the undead. Note: This skill should be considered a class skill for Clerics, Paladins, Rangers, Sorcerers and Wizards.

Knowledge (Planes) (Int.): This proficiency allows a character to become familiar with the hazards, denizens, and refuges of one specific plane. A character with this skill knows what the gates to the neighboring planes and different layers look like. He can recognize common denizens of that plane and estimate how dangerous they might be. He has a good idea of what’s where, and the general characteristics of any power’s realm in that plane. With a successful proficiency check, the character can determine which way to go to find any destination or portal he’s heard of, recognize uncommon or residents of the planes, determine the intent or purpose of any natives he meets, or survive on inhospitable planes without food, water or special equipment. When the character gains 12 ranks in this skill, that character is considered a specialist in that Layer. Layer specialization creates several contacts or acquisitions for the character or the layer in question. With a successful skill check, he can apply +3 to reaction adjustment to any dealings with natives of that layer – the character learns which names to drop in which situations. A character with layer specialization effectively has the direction sense, weather sense, and survival skills while on that layer. Unfortunately, the only way to specialize is by spending on the plane (or layer) in question. About four to eight months worth of travel and introductions will suffice for becoming a specialist. Note: This skill should be considered a class skill for Clerics, Paladins, Rangers, Sorcerers and Wizards.

 

[Steven McRownt]

Niko, i've studied your skill last night, but i've found something difficult in it: it is too bureocratic keepin' trak of the type of the undead met, or think to months in game play. It is ok, perhaps, better than mine, if you can play so much that game time is two or three times per week, for the whole day: u're not going to forget if your opponent was a zombie or an allip. But in most of the cases...it is simplier to put a table like the one i wrote.

Another point. If u try to use mine, u'll see that is hard to gain the needed information for apply the bonuses. But u can do it even if is the first time you've encountered that one (after all is a knowledge skill...you have to remember all the time spent studyin!!!!)

But i think i will add the malus to hit and/or damage if you fail the check of something more than the half...

Steven McRownt

 

[trentonjoe]

THis is what I use:

A knowledge check can me made as a free actions to recognize the undead. The DC is 5+Creatures Hit dice+ turn resistance. I use Hit dice because it scales better. If you chooses to take 10 it is a standard action, taking 20 takes 2 full actions.

After recognizing the udead the character knows (meaning can ask the DM) its Special Attacks and and Special qualities.

I am considering using/making a feat that allows characters to critical/ use sneak attack against RECOGNIZED undead.

I based this very much off of Steve McGrownt's post.

 

[Steven McRownt]

I suggest u to use the CR instead of the HD, as chacal has suggested me... i 24 hours i should place the re-revisited table!!!

Steven McRownt

 

[Steven McRownt]

Re-Revisited Table...

Knowledge (monster type) Chart: A new use for the knowledge skill
By Steven McRownt

As all the knowledge skill, it is based on Intelligence score. It is a class skill for Wizards/Sorcerers, Clerics and Rangers (for them che choice is limited to the favored enemy types, but they add their skill bonuses to that one too). For each type of monster you have to take ranks on this skill [i.e. Monster(undead), Monster(constructs), Monsters(oozes), ...)

This table is intended to give to the characters a chance to fully use their damage bonuses against creatures that normally have 'immunities' (such us no discernable anatomy). As a knowledge skill, the warrior group of classes will have to spend a lot of skill points to gain significant result,while spellcasters will not gain too much on this investment...

Basically, each time a character face a monster on which has been acknowledged, he can try to exactly remember how effectively fight versus it (it's as he is remembering the teaching of a Van Richten's guide or the like); take 10 or 20 for that is to DM's discretion (the fighter/cleric of the group can study all the information on someone that could be a disguised willing undead), or he can suffer penalties (a range from -3 to -10 depending on the situation) if he stumble on that disguised willing undead, but he has to start immediately the fight. Particular monsters (unique ones) can have a similar malus range (the above -3 to -10).

You should consider the hypothesis, in the case of a pack of zombies, to repeat the check for each of them, otherwise the skill could be unbalanced (I've explained this to my group because in a pack of zombies can be hidden a Mohrg who's controlling them). A quicker way to solve the problem could be throw the dice once (and add or subtract all the modifiers) and check on the table and see the result: the charcater will recognize ALL the monsters (of course, all that belong to the studied ones) he's examining within' his score (a total of 16 will be enough to successfully understand how to exploit the opponents' weaknesses of all the undead -using the example above -thas have from less of 1 to 9 in their Challenge Rating -CR-, but no more)

Another malus to the diffculty Class is given to the turn resistance of the undead (as Allip's +2 turn resistance, to reflect their particular immunities to positive energy and materials of the prime plane) (thank's to Chacal for the advice!).

The Table:
Monster's CR *Difficulty Class*
Less of 1 *6*
1 *7*
2-3 *9*
4-5 *11*
6-7 *13*
8-9 *15*
10-11 *18*
12-13 *21*
14-15 *24*
... *...*

If you want to continue to scale up the table (for Epic Undead!!!), you have to follow this simple mathematical progression: for each 10 CR the difficulty class rise up on 1 for each step (2 for 1-10 CR monsters, 3 for 10-20 CR, 4 for 21-30 CR, and so on!!!!)

To use this skill the character have to watch the undead for at least 3 rounds, and then he can try to recognize it. He can fight in those rounds (after all he's trying to understand their weakness), but this implies another -2 malus to the check (i know that all this malus let this skill very difficult to use, but we're talking to make critical hits and sneak
attacks to dead corpse, or gelatinous cubes moving around!). Fail the check means also that you can't retry on the same monster/group of monster.

Those are the principal benefits with a successul roll:
1. Critical hits, favered enemies damage bonus and sneak attacks have full effects
2. The characrteer can know that -for example- have to break the heart with a particular wood type stake to permanently kill a vampire, or destroy the philacetery to put and end (another!) the the (un)life of a lich.
3. That fire elementals are immune to fire damage (!) and such resistances of the particular type(s) of monster he/she knows.

p.s. The DC is a little bit thougher using CR rather than HD, so i've adjusted it (After a virtual playtesting)!

Steven McRownt