5E Knowledge skills in combat

the dm and i have been told by a fellow player who dm's that the fact my wizard functionally has expertise in all knowledge skills is not usable during combat at all. i can't ask him if i "know" anything, during combat. can't ask if i know about a monster. know any of its vulnerabilities. commonly known weaknesses. rarely known ones. i have a +12 to all knowledges. i can't ask to know any sort of thing about combat? really? is there anything about this that isn't quite right? he's been told he shouldn't ask me to roll any knowledges at all when i see a creature. basically this player in and out of combat keeps finding reasons to say knowledge skills basically just don't have functions.
 

Ashrym

Hero
the dm and i have been told by a fellow player who dm's that the fact my wizard functionally has expertise in all knowledge skills is not usable during combat at all. i can't ask him if i "know" anything, during combat. can't ask if i know about a monster. know any of its vulnerabilities. commonly known weaknesses. rarely known ones. i have a +12 to all knowledges. i can't ask to know any sort of thing about combat? really? is there anything about this that isn't quite right? he's been told he shouldn't ask me to roll any knowledges at all when i see a creature. basically this player in and out of combat keeps finding reasons to say knowledge skills basically just don't have functions.
If your DM says it's impossible I would have to say it's impossible in his campaign.

It's possible in my campaigns, but the DM is the DM and that's who allows, disallows, or interprets rules at his table. He or she definitely gets to decide how or why a check is made and any results, if a roll is needed or if the result of an action is impossible. I don't know the context of the setting leading to the decision and it wouldn't be my place to disagree, sorry.
 
If your DM says it's impossible I would have to say it's impossible in his campaign.

It's possible in my campaigns, but the DM is the DM and that's who allows, disallows, or interprets rules at his table. He or she definitely gets to decide how or why a check is made and any results, if a roll is needed or if the result of an action is impossible. I don't know the context of the setting leading to the decision and it wouldn't be my place to disagree, sorry.
its not as simple as "my dm is saying it". its more that there is a player (who is a dm in other games) who is convincing the dm that these skills aren't allowed to be used in combat and that their out of combat uses are extremely limited. basically someone is manipulating the dm. bit of a cursed dm al a possessed dm variant sort of situation if you are familiar with the community figures of speech.
 
the dm and i have been told by a fellow player who dm's that the fact my wizard functionally has expertise in all knowledge skills is not usable during combat at all. ...basically this player in and out of combat keeps finding reasons to say knowledge skills basically just don't have functions.
I'm curious what this guy is playing that he's that envious.

Also didn't catch what you meant by functional expertise...
 
its not really because of class. i don't even think the other player is jealous. they crave attention basically. although, the class they play would normally have a big advantage over most classes in knowledges. perhaps that's related? we made our characters without eachother's knowledge.

i get double prof but its not named "expertise". i have it in all knowledge skills. paid through the nose for it.
 

Ashrym

Hero
its not as simple as "my dm is saying it". its more that there is a player (who is a dm in other games) who is convincing the dm that these skills aren't allowed to be used in combat and that their out of combat uses are extremely limited. basically someone is manipulating the dm. bit of a cursed dm al a possessed dm variant sort of situation if you are familiar with the community figures of speech.
It's still very DM dependent. The rules are clear on that. The checks specifically state they recall lore so there's no reason to believe they would not do that, but how much lore could easily be dependent on the amount of time invested.

If I think you should reasonably know based on your actual bonus then I'm just going to tell you without a check. Many DM's are looking for an action of some sort. If you do something that costs you time in that combat round I would let you do so. If it's using your reaction I'll give more information than the standard "what you should reasonably know" and if it uses your action I would give even more information. That's the benefit of investing time into the check through some sort of action.

If you were not in combat I wouldn't bother with the roll at all, but combat is distracting so a roll while you try to think as part of your action may be appropriate. Combat itself doesn't mean a person does not know the lore or cannot take an action that might cause a check, but a DM could still say you are focused on the combat and call it impossible. That's something you would want to go over with your DM and still how he or she wants to run the campaign.

Personally, if you invested heavily in the concept on your character I would allow you to use that investment.
 
thankyou. what about simple facts? whether rare or not, simple facts can just flash to your mind. like, i've got an undead in front of me, precisely because i'm focused on combat wouldn't the idea of "x undead is weak to silver" or something simple like that reasonably come to mind? kinda the same way if you are fighting a man hand to hand, and you see a sword on the wall it occurs to you "beheading him with that thing would kill him" would come to mind? simple stuff? like, stuff that can be said in 10 words or less. snap decision type stuff.

if not thankyou either way.
 

Ashrym

Hero
thankyou. what about simple facts? whether rare or not, simple facts can just flash to your mind. like, i've got an undead in front of me, precisely because i'm focused on combat wouldn't the idea of "x undead is weak to silver" or something simple like that reasonably come to mind? kinda the same way if you are fighting a man hand to hand, and you see a sword on the wall it occurs to you "beheading him with that thing would kill him" would come to mind? simple stuff? like, stuff that can be said in 10 words or less. snap decision type stuff.

if not thankyou either way.
If it were me I would just give those simple facts. A person doesn't become an expert in lore without having learned lore. The check is just in recalling it. If it's basic knowledge everyone knows or basic knowledge I would expect any academic trained in the area to know I would give it. Again though, not my campaign. I cannot speak for your DM; only what I would do. ;)
 

billd91

Hobbit on Quest
Why on earth would knowledge not be useable in combat? Is it because there isn't a specific action for it detailed in the Players Handbook? The DM can always rule that there's an improvised action to account for it if he feels an action is necessary.
It sounds like the other player is trying to manipulate your DM into running the game like he runs his game.
 
Why on earth would knowledge not be useable in combat? Is it because there isn't a specific action for it detailed in the Players Handbook? The DM can always rule that there's an improvised action to account for it if he feels an action is necessary.
It sounds like the other player is trying to manipulate your DM into running the game like he runs his game.
pretty much my feeling. plus extra angst because he doesn't want to be the second most knowledge capable pc.

further, i just don't get why even if its advanced knowledge you wouln't have access to it. maybe if you JUST got punched in the face. then for a round i'd understand like a...stupifying effect? you'd think if you know it you know it.
 

billd91

Hobbit on Quest
further, i just don't get why even if its advanced knowledge you wouln't have access to it. maybe if you JUST got punched in the face. then for a round i'd understand like a...stupifying effect? you'd think if you know it you know it.
A die roll would indicate whether or not your PC could recall particularly pertinent details in a stress situation, something you assume combat would be. That's why I have no problems with making lore checks in general. I'd be more inclined to just give the info away in a non-combat situation, when the character isn't being distracted by the threat of imminently being gutted.
 
A die roll would indicate whether or not your PC could recall particularly pertinent details in a stress situation, something you assume combat would be. That's why I have no problems with making lore checks in general. I'd be more inclined to just give the info away in a non-combat situation, when the character isn't being distracted by the threat of imminently being gutted.
see...
this is precisely what i think too. the roll is for seeing if you can remember lickity split in a stressful situation. for the record i would give some sort of a bonus to the dc against the negative imposed by the stress too. maybe a +(your con mod, or your int mod, or something) representing how fast you think. actually i'd probably go with int because its gonna be primarily how FAST you can think under stress. you don't really need to concentrate because its split second type of stuff.
 
its not really because of class. i don't even think the other player is jealous. they crave attention basically. although, the class they play would normally have a big advantage over most classes in knowledges. perhaps that's related?
Maybe I'm splitting hairs, but jealous is wanting what you have, envy is begrudging you it, what he's doing looks, from your side of it, like he's begrudging you - actively sabotaging, even.

And, it sounds like, with some provocation: you created characters who might have been meant to shine at similar times, and, yours overshadowed his. Whether due to system mastery or whatever other factors.
we made our characters without eachother's knowledge
Session 0 might've headed the whole thing off.

Still curious what sort of character he went for.
 

ad_hoc

Hero
pretty much my feeling. plus extra angst because he doesn't want to be the second most knowledge capable pc.

further, i just don't get why even if its advanced knowledge you wouln't have access to it. maybe if you JUST got punched in the face. then for a round i'd understand like a...stupifying effect? you'd think if you know it you know it.

I have learned a lot of things that I have trouble recalling.

I thought that was common.

If I took my exams again tomorrow I doubt I would get As.

I can recall some of the stuff on command, it's just hit and miss. (What I have retained is the ability to look up the information and understand it).
 

Horwath

Adventurer
I would say that recall knowledge is instant.

Either you know it or you do not.

d20 is here to give a chance do you know it or not.

your DM sets DCs and what amount of information various DCs give, but he should give you something usefull with 15, few tips with 20. 25 should get you all facts about common subjects and 30 all facts about most obscure ones.
 
Maybe I'm splitting hairs, but jealous is wanting what you have, envy is begrudging you it, what he's doing looks, from your side of it, like he's begrudging you - actively sabotaging, even.

And, it sounds like, with some provocation: you created characters who might have been meant to shine at similar times, and, yours overshadowed his. Whether due to system mastery or whatever other factors.
Session 0 might've headed the whole thing off.

Still curious what sort of character he went for.
well. i don't think provocation could have been possible. i mean...we had no idea what eachother was gonna play. and there wasn't a session 0 (i know some people do that. we didn't.)

as i understand it he's some kind of rogue and a type of human that gives him an extra feat at start up. i don't actually know much about his build. my character is a bit of a knowledge sponge. meant to be a bit of a spellcasting sherlock holmes with a dash of humor. but not actually intended to be a party face (something he definitely seems to be after (on the hefty list of things he's after.). to be honest, i never intended to get in his way. but he seems to have a very easily bruised ego.

he MIGHT have known my general character concept now that i think of it though...hmmm. i don't think so but its at least possible. still, i had no idea what he was playing.
 
I have learned a lot of things that I have trouble recalling.

I thought that was common.

If I took my exams again tomorrow I doubt I would get As.

I can recall some of the stuff on command, it's just hit and miss. (What I have retained is the ability to look up the information and understand it).
the vast majority of a person's knowledge is generally ingrained enough so as not to be tempermental though. you recently learned something? well then what you actually keep will be shaky. known something for months or even years? unlikely to forget the really important parts. even if rare knowledge.
 
I would say that recall knowledge is instant.

Either you know it or you do not.

d20 is here to give a chance do you know it or not.

your DM sets DCs and what amount of information various DCs give, but he should give you something usefull with 15, few tips with 20. 25 should get you all facts about common subjects and 30 all facts about most obscure ones.
that's actually pretty close to how i run my games. i'm not trying to step on the dm's toes and get him to run 5e like i run 3 and 3.5 of course. unlike the other guy i don't really wanna manipulate the dm. but this knowledge desert that i feel like i am currently in feels awfully oppressive, unrealistic, absurd, and quite frankly feels like its the result of someone having manipulated him to an extreme side of possible interpretations. it also smacks of vendetta (on that player's involvement) and not a concern for the game making any sense.
 
as i understand it he's some kind of rogue and a type of human that gives him an extra feat at start up. i don't actually know much about his build. ...party face (something he definitely seems to be after (on the hefty list of things he's after.). to be honest, i never intended to get in his way.
Thanks, that adds some clarity. It's easy to overreach with a concept like that: try to be good with too many things using just skills, feats &c and you will likely not be so good at anything.
A specialist will show you up pretty consistently.

. still, i had no idea what he was playing.
Sorry, didn't mean to suggest you intentionally provoked him.
 
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I could see that. It's easy to overreach with a concept like that: try to be good with too many things using just skills, feats &c and you will likely not be so good at anything.
A specialist will show you up pretty consistently.

Sorry, didn't mean to suggest you intentionally provoked him.
to his credit, his character is certainly the best in some areas. i'd go so far as to say more areas than the median player at this table. including the areas he coveted most. but i stepped on his toes with knowledge i guess (not even his primary area of interest. its tertiary to him.) and i guess that cannot stand. its definitely an unfortunate situation. i haven't played with him before for the record, so i don't know if this is a pattern. we just have a lot of mutual friends. we've both played a lot. first time sharing a table. i've been trying to deal with him peacefully. he really seems territorial though. kinda wish i could just roll a new character and let him have the knowledges but its a bit late for that.
 

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