KotS session 1 questions and comments

[Zalgarde]

Well Sunday afternoon I ran KotS for what wound up being 2 old hands (2e or older version) two veteran players (3e and 3.5) one guys sisters and another's fiance' (have played rpg's less times than I have fingers).

So, after maybe bending some copyright rules by photocopying the characters (and a second dwarf) so I didn't shred my adventure book, I set about reading the rules to everyone.

So, biggest cheer?
two fighters unloading two brute strikes on that one stupid kobold in the first encounter that no one seemed to be able to roll a decent hit against.

biggest jeers?
-- why is my dwarf trapped in a box and wheres his maul? (the character sketches didn't match the npc's at all, this REALLY bugged the new players)
-- the first magic missile missing (different is fine, but I guess un-autohitting magic missile is not, judging from the table's reaction)
-- someone provoked a monster AO, which provoked a players AO, and then we tried to figure out whether it went off when the monster was flanked (the general consensus was "I thought they made this simpler!")
-- minions (a few players still insisted on rolling damage, and most everyone seemed to dislike the 1hp thing, one dwarf even switched to chucking daggers, instead of using his maul as a sign of protest)

Some people asked some really good questions that I didn't have good answers for:
-- does that rogue flourish attack work on mindless enemies? and why does it work with ranged attacks if its about distracting them so they don't see the weapon hitting them... does the player chuck a rock 2 squares over or something?
-- the rules say specific trumps general always. but "Minions don't die from a miss" seemed pretty specific, and reaping strike says "Miss: deals 3 damage" which is VERY specific. I went with reaping strike since a single power's description is probably as specific as it gets, but I worry that could cause problems if I keep making common sense judgement calls like that (on the other hand the player pointed out his at will was rubbish against 70% of the enemies otherwise so I guess it worked out).
-- probably just not covered in the little starter rules, but if a guys on a cliff making an athletic check, and someone hits them with a maul, mechanics wise is there a bonus on that? (is holding onto a cliff count as not being able to defend yourself? is there a penalty for that? is there some highground bonus I'm missing?) I just gave em a +2 but again, I dunno if maybe theres some rules for that one way or another (similar situations have started fights in our group when I make up bonuses or penalties when the rules seem to indicate there is no penalty, or its not the right amount)
-- Is there a way to subdue people? I think I read somewhere on the boards the day before that if a hit would kill an opponent you can make it do whatever you want instead, but uhh that sounded very uhh houserulish.
-- Does a long rest refill all HP at every level? (I told them it was just cause they were level 1, so the adventure designers knew everyone was gonna pretty much get em all back anyway so they left out the mechanics, but I totally just made that up on the spot to keep people from bitching)
-- do you only get one combat advantage? or do they stack if you keep piling on trouble.
-- if kobolds can take a pair of daily-power maul hits, are all level appropriate enemies about even with players on HP and the like? (my friend was crying WoW syndrome where their level bar pretty much told you everything about em, but I told him to can it, cause the kobold just probably had a lot of hp cause they were level 1 and the ones with 30hp were like bosses, and that thered be some low hp non-minion enemies in the monster manual)
-- with burning hands (or well any power that says close) can it be any adjacent part or does the caster have to be on the midpoint of a side)
Also are all area effects squares?

I think that was all of them. Oh Dagron wanted to know when he got his mount. Told him to buy the books, and tell ME.

Ok so the game itself, well it played slow! but I was really surprised by how slow actually, movement felt more complicated to be honest with all the shifting going on (especially since it kept provoking attack of opportunities even though it was a shift from this that or the other power!). I can't say for sure, but I can't even imagine its halfway possible to play this without a mat. putting all the powers on the players character sheets really slowed things too as I kept having to grab their papers, admittedly its a starter set, but every player seemed to use at least one power EVERY turn and they're all different from the other players (well except the dwarf twins, that was nice), I know its more fun than just rolling an attack with maybe some sort of modifier, but it felt like the time I ran for a full party of casters in 3e. I'm worried it'll be worse when theres a book full of powers to flip through to find the one the player just picked at that moment.

Its more player friendly though. I wouldn't say its much less complicated in combat, but its a little more intuitive and a lot more follow-directionsy, so both the new players really got into it, which is always cool.

the vets complained a little when using tactical common sense (not firing through people was the one that I remember) didn't reward them to their liking. And the new girl was a little upset/confused, when her sleep spell failed, but then succeeded because its also a slow spell (at least her description said they got slowed), but then failed really because slowing didn't stop them from biting her anyway. But I guess mostly people were ok with their powers. Also if she sleeps one and it gets hit awake is it slowed? she thought it should be, but I figured not at all, since it only goes into effect on miss.

Overall though, I walked away a little disappointed. the two new players had some fun, but they didn't seem into it enough to show up regularly, and while my friends were entertained (at least the 5$ that their share of the adventure would've been, had I made em pay) no one there, new or old, seemed 100$ excited or even just 35$ excited, which is what I'm guessing the PHB is gonna cost em at borders. Sooo its probably me running all the time and thats only if I can convince people to even buy the books.

 

[Boarstorm]

-- does that rogue flourish attack work on mindless enemies? and why does it work with ranged attacks if its about distracting them so they don't see the weapon hitting them... does the player chuck a rock 2 squares over or something?

Unless it says it doesn't work, it does.

-- the rules say specific trumps general always. but "Minions don't die from a miss" seemed pretty specific, and reaping strike says "Miss: deals 3 damage" which is VERY specific. I went with reaping strike since a single power's description is probably as specific as it gets, but I worry that could cause problems if I keep making common sense judgement calls like that (on the other hand the player pointed out his at will was rubbish against 70% of the enemies otherwise so I guess it worked out).

Minion trumps Reaping Strike.

-- Is there a way to subdue people? I think I read somewhere on the boards the day before that if a hit would kill an opponent you can make it do whatever you want instead, but uhh that sounded very uhh houserulish.

Houserulish or not, that's RAW.

-- Does a long rest refill all HP at every level? (I told them it was just cause they were level 1, so the adventure designers knew everyone was gonna pretty much get em all back anyway so they left out the mechanics, but I totally just made that up on the spot to keep people from bitching)

Expect bitching once you get the full rules.

-- do you only get one combat advantage? or do they stack if you keep piling on trouble.

Bonuses of the same type do not stack, so I'd rule that you only get a single CA.

-- if kobolds can take a pair of daily-power maul hits, are all level appropriate enemies about even with players on HP and the like? (my friend was crying WoW syndrome where their level bar pretty much told you everything about em, but I told him to can it, cause the kobold just probably had a lot of hp cause they were level 1 and the ones with 30hp were like bosses, and that thered be some low hp non-minion enemies in the monster manual)

Well, yes and no. It depends on the monster's level, role and tier (minion, standard, elite, solo).

-- with burning hands (or well any power that says close) can it be any adjacent part or does the caster have to be on the midpoint of a side)
Also are all area effects squares?

Any adjacent part, and pretty much all squares, yes.

Also if she sleeps one and it gets hit awake is it slowed? she thought it should be, but I figured not at all, since it only goes into effect on miss.

What is this "hit awake" you speak of?

 

[Zalgarde]

wait so a mage could use meteor storm to disarm some guys and obliterate others others as long as they all would've died? or is it only for single target attacks?

Also thanks for the pointer on sleep... I totally just made a 3e assumption.. I think more than a few of the quibbles that came up revolved around that.

And I didn't see the elite/standard thing anywhere in the books. I totally thought there were only bosses, vanilla-npcish type, and minions. Were the kobold slingers and fighters in the first fight elite or standard?

 

[small pumpkin man]

biggest jeers?
-- someone provoked a monster AO, which provoked a players AO, and then we tried to figure out whether it went off when the monster was flanked (the general consensus was "I thought they made this simpler!")

I'm I'm not sure if that can actually happen. I assume you mean somebody moved past a monster who was in melee with the Fighter? The fighter gets an immediate interupt attack, not an OA, but in either case, the attack interrupts the original action, so the Fighter goes first.

-- minions (a few players still insisted on rolling damage, and most everyone seemed to dislike the 1hp thing, one dwarf even switched to chucking daggers, instead of using his maul as a sign of protest)

See, that's actually silly. It's a kobold, having one hp is normal. I get the dislike for minions, I think they could have been done better, but sometimes people need to give their nerd rage a rest and just play the game.

Some people asked some really good questions that I didn't have good answers for:
-- does that rogue flourish attack work on mindless enemies? and why does it work with ranged attacks if its about distracting them so they don't see the weapon hitting them... does the player chuck a rock 2 squares over or something?

Because the Rogue awesome.

-- the rules say specific trumps general always. but "Minions don't die from a miss" seemed pretty specific, and reaping strike says "Miss: deals 3 damage" which is VERY specific. I went with reaping strike since a single power's description is probably as specific as it gets, but I worry that could cause problems if I keep making common sense judgement calls like that (on the other hand the player pointed out his at will was rubbish against 70% of the enemies otherwise so I guess it worked out).

No, the Minion thing wins out. The miss effect is a general attack effect ability which many Dailys have, the Minion thing is a specific monster ability.

-- probably just not covered in the little starter rules, but if a guys on a cliff making an athletic check, and someone hits them with a maul, mechanics wise is there a bonus on that? (is holding onto a cliff count as not being able to defend yourself? is there a penalty for that? is there some highground bonus I'm missing?) I just gave em a +2 but again, I dunno if maybe theres some rules for that one way or another (similar situations have started fights in our group when I make up bonuses or penalties when the rules seem to indicate there is no penalty, or its not the right amount)

Probably Combat advantage, yeah.

-- Is there a way to subdue people? I think I read somewhere on the boards the day before that if a hit would kill an opponent you can make it do whatever you want instead, but uhh that sounded very uhh houserulish.

That's the rule. When you do more damage to an opponent than they have hp, you "win", the exact details of this are up to the player.

-- if kobolds can take a pair of daily-power maul hits, are all level appropriate enemies about even with players on HP and the like? (my friend was crying WoW syndrome where their level bar pretty much told you everything about em, but I told him to can it, cause the kobold just probably had a lot of hp cause they were level 1 and the ones with 30hp were like bosses, and that thered be some low hp non-minion enemies in the monster manual)

The obvious difference is that the players can't see the creature's level. The idea that monsters are actually balanced for their level could be a bad thing is absurd.

And yes, the hp of normal monsters scales similarly to PCs.

-- with burning hands (or well any power that says close) can it be any adjacent part or does the caster have to be on the midpoint of a side)

There are burst effects and blast effects. Burning hands is a Blast, as such it's a 3 by three square which can be anywhere adjascent to the caster.

Also are all area effects squares?

Yes.

And the new girl was a little upset/confused, when her sleep spell failed, but then succeeded because its also a slow spell (at least her description said they got slowed), but then failed really because slowing didn't stop them from biting her anyway. But I guess mostly people were ok with their powers. Also if she sleeps one and it gets hit awake is it slowed? she thought it should be, but I figured not at all, since it only goes into effect on miss.

Sleep is a bit wierd, it's tactical uses are unfortunately not at all obvious, and the wand implement arguably goes better with a different daily.

Not that she could have known that.

 

[small pumpkin man]

And I didn't see the elite/standard thing anywhere in the books. I totally thought there were only bosses, vanilla-npcish type, and minions. Were the kobold slingers and fighters in the first fight elite or standard?

They're standard monsters.

 

[tgaptte]

Hitting a sleeping creature no longer wakes it up. The only way a creature who is sleeping can be awoken is by that creature making its saving throw.

Don't think of sleep as "sleep" of 3.5...the new sleep is more of an "incapacitated".

T

 

[Boarstorm]

I... uhh... hum. I dunno on the Meteor Swarm bit. I'd guess you can pick and choose who shall live and who shall die, but I'm not certain, to be honest.

Regarding the kobolds -- those were the "vanilla" type. Elites look like... well, look at the named character in A3, or perhaps the final boss.

For an example of a solo, check out the big named undead.

Spoilers for those playing:
[sblock]
Irontooth and Kalarel, for example, are elites. Sir Keegan is a solo, as is one or both of the slime-type enemies (memory is a tad fuzzy on that score).
[/sblock]

You should be able to see their type on the stat line. "Level 1 elite" or whatnot.

 

[Zalgarde]

The obvious difference is that the players can't see the creature's level. The idea that monsters are actually balanced for their level could be a bad thing is absurd.

I totally disagree... games these days operate on this weird "every stat on a creature from attacks to defenses to hit points has to be within 10% +/- of the players on each count to stay balanced" I think a lot of the coolest monsters and fights in a role playing game come from interesting monsters that buck that trend by
A) having some interesting special ability that plays WELL outside the established norms
B) having a tremendous strength in one area with one or more weaknesses to balance it out.

As long as you have clues within the encounter, the creature description matches its capabilities and style and maybe even allow some skill hooks to help figure out its strengths/weaknesses it turns out fine.

My huge gripe once I started dm'ing (almost exclusively 3e so maybe its true in other editions too), was that players couldn't tell AT ALL by looking at a creature what it was capable of... there are sooo many medium size lizardman-ish creatures in the various 3e monster books, and they seriously go upwards of cr10... so when I say "you see a roughly man size bipedal lizard creature with some wicked teeth weilding human equipment." It means nothing at all to them except what size it is, and that it might have loot they can wear. If it followed adventurers rules even at least they could make some ill informed guesses based on how sparkly the equipment was.
Probably its just me though, I dm weird.

 

[Vaeron]

putting all the powers on the players character sheets really slowed things too as I kept having to grab their papers, admittedly its a starter set, but every player seemed to use at least one power EVERY turn and they're all different from the other players (well except the dwarf twins, that was nice), I know its more fun than just rolling an attack with maybe some sort of modifier, but it felt like the time I ran for a full party of casters in 3e. I'm worried it'll be worse when theres a book full of powers to flip through to find the one the player just picked at that moment.

Why did you keep having to grab their power sheets? The powers are pretty straightforward, did you have to interpret the powers for them? Especially since you said you made photocopies, why didn't you just keep the player book handy for you to look at, since they had their own sheets to look at? Did you just not trust the numbers they were telling you? It's even easier in KotS than in the PHB, because actual + numbers are there instead of just Dexterity Versus AC, or (2[W]+dex mod) or whatever.

Otherwise, it sounds like reading through the PHB-lite that's been on this site would have been a really helpful thing to do. Most of your problems seemed to stem from unfamiliarity with the rules, which seems usually to happen when people automatically assume the rules work the same way as they do in 3e... Then they can't understand the way something's written because they're trying to convert it in their head into something 3eish.

 

[Zalgarde]

2 players were brand new, so when one of them says "I want to use my sly flourish thing", I had to stop and look it up... as for looking it up in the quick guide it kept sliding off the table and onto the floor if I opened it and set it down, its very glossy and likes to tumble so I just gave up. so yea by the end of the session I had the at will ones down, but I definitely wouldn't say I was familiar on the in's and outs of the encounter ones, and they were most of the way to a new level which means new powers (I assume). And its not that I don't trust them, its that we're all sort of new to this... not that it was any different for 3.x with the perpetual newness of extra supplements brought in what seemed like every other session, but I'm just saying, stopping to read over nitpicks and abilities each time did seem to slow things down every bit as much as 3e, which was kinda lame.

And by and large I tried not to take anything for granted because as you said theres a real tendancy to want to treat it like 3e.