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Message: <blockquote data-quote="darjr" data-source="post: 8928989" data-attributes="member: 52905">[USER=1]@Morrus[/USER]edit to add: I've copied the transcript into the following spoiler block. Please note it's google youtube transcript straight from the video so caveat emptor. Do not take it as verbatim. Listen to the section of the podcast your interested in before diving into commenting. You can do that by pulling up the transcript in youtube and clicking on the text you want to hear and the video will be moved to that bit.[spoiler]Three Black Halflings interview Kyle Brinkhello helloHalflings it's me oh Jeremy Cobb but Andrew V calls me Jeremynot Renner Cobb because they already call their other friend Jer bear and the only other Jeremy on their radar wasHawkeye so you know and Andrew V also sent us a super nice message on patreon so shout out to them for that thank youAndrew V and I am joined today bye hello hi my name is Olivia Kennedy butyou can call me Linda yes hi yes uh so Jeremy yeah today's episode is is alittle bit of a serious one uh or like oh it's actually a very serious one because we are talking about something that is very important uh and hasaffected this community more so than anything in a good long time uh if youthought the hadozi was a big deal good Lord um where you're talking about the ogl uhin this episode we will be in very shortly uh interviewing Mr Kyle Brink uhwho is the uh d d let's see the d d team's executive producer that's hisofficial title um it's uh it's yeah we are here he's he's here to talk about the ogl he hassaid that nothing is off the table in terms of questions Liv how you feel about this uh it's gonna be interestingit's gonna be great I think we should dive straight into it and because I we know the people waiting for it we are here with Kyle Brink D teams executiveproducer Kyle first of all thank you so much for being here yeah sureum happy to be here yes uh I guess my first question yes uh my first question isin your own words why are you here uh because what's happened in ourcommunity has affected uh creators and the Community First and hardest sothat's where I needed to go first okay um well I guess on the subject of thingsaffecting the community well uh this entire conversation is obviously in the wake of the oglcontroversy so uh my first question would be why is it that uh managementfeels the need to change the ogl in the first place or at least felt the need to change the Ojo in the first placeyeah uh so we still have a lot of real concerns about um big media corpse moving into the d d spaceum new technologies that weren't considered when the Ojo was first written um the emergence of some hatefulcontent that's coming around out there uh when you have a bigger Community you have a bigger Duty and uh we're justworried about the impact of some of these things and that was the origin I will say that I've been at Wizards for acouple years now and this was in process when I got here so these concerns have been a concern that Wizards for a longtime uh and uh I was part of the team that picked up the ball and and continued forward with it but that wasthe those were the motivations behind it is is worries about and when I say big media corpse I don't mean wizards big Imean like meta big I mean like Disney big that's the kind of stuff we were actually worried about so specificallyuh like in what way were you worried about a a company like Disney uh likesomehow interfering with d and d so under the Ogo 108 is written you knowthere's quite a bit of things you could do with the SRD and um just as a for instance this wasn't a specific concernbut you asked for an example uh let's say that you were a large um social media company that had built an amazingsocial media platform and then you would use those dollars to make um a virtual reality meta verse youmight say let's say you were some unnamed company that had done all those things and then you decided to make a dd virtual reality space where people could come and play D D in VR well aswritten we wouldn't be there at the table to talk with them about what's true to d d and what's notum and we would be very concerned about where a company like that that has not had a great track record honestly withhow it manages its community and what it allows people to do on its platforms what they would do with DNDum and so we were looking for ways to be at the table when those conversations take placeokay uh so even aside from that though when it was released uh it obviouslythere were the the the the reach uh the potential reach of the ogl stretched farbeyond anything like a megacorp like Disney can you provide an overview of the decision making process that wentinto the original wording that was uh leaked yeah so the the things that we're in 1.1uh and that was a terrible way to approach the goals we had in mind uhwhich is why it was such an easy so it was easy for us to do a U-turn and abandon those right away because it wasone of those things where um piece by piece it seems like you're making a good decision and then you endup in a terrible Place uh and uh we're grateful to all the feedback that was so strong and so clear that allowed us touh see for ourselves where we had gotten ourselves to uh the because the missionwas never about hurting the community the second the community was hurt we dropped it like a hot rock because wedidn't want that wasn't our mission um I you know the the people ask why are royalties in there well that's the ideawas if you're a giant corporation that would be a huge deterrent to you and the thinking was you can see in the thenumbers that were in there that there was supposed to be this area where it didn't matter where if you were a small Creator it would be fine that's all bythe wayside though it's very clear that that all that stuff in there was a huge problem for creators so we just wedropped it and left because that's not what we're there for okay so you're saying that like over the course of the years that you guys spent developing thedocument you lost sight of the overall scope of what who it might affectI would say it's more that we um we lost sight I would say we lost sight of the impact of what the impact couldbe on the people we weren't concerned about you know our Focus so much is on who we were concerned about uh that welost sight of who we were not concerned about who we wanted to thrive who wanted to help and so we accidentally ascollateral damage really really uh did it a lot would have fortunately it wasnever published and never will be published but that document would clearly have done a lot of harm and youdidn't have anybody in place to oversee this before it was scheduled to be releasedwe had a number of people in the room uh my team was uh and and this is this is my fault was underrepresented I wastrying to protect the team from distractions like discussing a licensing agreement so we can make the game so wecan make cool supplements and books uh and I should have had more of my team in the room and that's being correctedgoing forward um okay I I guess as a yes or no questionoh did you have something you wanted to jump in with um I just wanted to uh this might besomething that we'll get on to later but um there have been rumors going around in the community thatum a meeting took place between Wizards of the Coast and a number of like large d d and ttrpg creators where wizard ofthe coast told them that there would be plans for the new orgl and allowed some of them to do the opt-in for like betterdeals in terms of the monetization of like um their uh actual play shows orwhatever shows they're producing um and it was also confirmed by John Ritter of Kickstarter like did can youtell us did this meeting occur who was present and what kind of deals were offered or discussed uh I wasn't presentfor any meeting like that uh I mean unfortunately for this conversation I Imake the game so there are things that I'm not part of um and so that would have been another set of people at Wizards having thoseconversations so I can't speak to first-hand knowledge of this just to set that table um I was aware that we were speaking tocreators because we wanted input we were doing staged feedback where we talked to some of the largest creators first toget their feedback and then moving forward and we were going to bring it to the community for their feedback as well stage wise so that by the time webrought it to the community it would hopefully be in a better State than it was and some of those conversation Iwasn't in those conversations but I could see how some of those conversations might have been about would you know what would a better deallook like um but again I wasn't there so I can't speak to those specifics I could certainly see how conversations likethat could be seen as a big meeting offering sweetheart deals but once againI wasn't present I do know that we were talking to creators ahead of time and we were soliciting their input on what abetter deal would look like did anybody well go ahead oh go ahead Jeremy oh Iwas just gonna say did anybody internally uh sorry there's a little bit of a delay uh did anybody internally atWizards then later inform you of who these people were that were being spokento uh and perhaps what the specifics of any of those because you're aware that they did happen uh you know has anyonesince said who they were meeting with and what kinds of terms were discussed Iknow uh I know who we were meeting with because we talked about hey who should we be reaching out to who should we talk to First about this who are the peoplewho are having the biggest impact in the space and would therefore have the best perspective on all this um and so you know people likeKickstarter and and some of the larger creators you know yes I'm aware of you know who we talked to First the priorityorder in which we were talking to people um but I don't know beyond that like the specifics of of the the conversationsthat they had it what would come back to the the room that I was in was General like feedback that we were getting onhey this is a problem this is a problem this is a problem so we would know what to do to fix it by the time um the 1.1uh version of the document was made public we had already abandoned a lot ofthe things that were problematic because the feedback we were getting we just hadn't published that update yet sonobody could see it that's partly why 1.2 is so quick to come out after 1-1 because we'd already been heading inthat direction based on what we're hearing um okay well on the subject uh I I guessput a pin on the subject of who was spoken to for a second but you mentioned uh the quickness the swiftness of the ofthe response speaking of somebody who was watching the situation as it unfolded it actuallyseemed like there was quite a long delay between the initial leaking and the response of over a week so my questionis if in fact the ogl 1.2 was already in progress of being developed why did itwhy was there such a long delay for any kind of communication uh from Wizards orD and D yeah this was a thing that got me personally involved more I mean I waspart of the group but this is you know as you saw very quickly afterwards I became um very personally involved in the inthe response cycle because it was killing me that it was taking so long uh and it was uh I described it as a longdelay built out of many small good decisions um we were working on this document we thought you know what at this pointpeople need to see action they don't need to see words so let's give them the new version okay well let's make sure this is the version we were on releaseokay well I have one edit to make here I got one tweak to make here I got one and there's you have enough stakeholders each wanting to make it a little bitbetter that perfect got in the way of good perfect got in the way of done and so that the silence was because wedidn't want to just say words at a time when words weren't going to cut it and the thing to release took too long toperfect that it just it compounded into the silence and no time did anyone say you know what we should do let's not sayanything for a week and a half like that decision was never made it's what occurred because of all the smalldecisions we were making minute by minute day by day because we're also watching what people were saying in thecommunity and we would see a new uh concern arise oh we have to make sure to address that in this too all right let's make sure to build that in and so youjust get caught in this infinite Loop of iteration and you can never publish because you're not quite ready yet you're still not quite ready you'restill not quite ready yet it's um it was it was a terrible situation to be in uh okay I have I guess two orthree responses we'll see if the third one fully materializes the first uh response is did no one at any pointduring that period seeing the public outcry that was getting worse and worsesuggest even saying anything to even saying hey we are actively working onthis this was any sort of announcement essentially what yes why did nothinghappen because it's one thing to be like oh we we were delaying the big announcement but it and I guess to fullyand elucidate that point uh there have been reports from people internally uhwho have from Secret sources uh who apparently are verified uh employees ofDungeons and Dragons and wizard of the coast who have said that there the delay was because uh they that management wasessentially waiting to see how much of a financial impact this was actually going to have and whether or not the wholething was going to blow over no that was not the reason for the delay definitely um seem like that just because it seemedas though from a creative perspective and a fan perspective that nothing actually changed until the decline in dd Beyond subscriptions like that can't be a coincidence surely well it it also can because it takes along time to actually modify a legal document when you have a lot of stakeholders it you can't turn on a dime and so it can't it actually couldn'thave been turned around in response to the decline in subscriptions because that would have been too fast it would have been too short a time period for acorporation our size to pull that off with a legal document with a bunch of stakeholders um and so we were already working onthat document before the uh the um folks who decided to stop uhsubscribing decided to stop doing that it's uh the main reason that we weren't ready sorry I want to get to your uhJeremy I want to get to your first question about um the event did no one say we should say something yes yes we did however inthat environment where there was already such a lack of trust and already such concern over our motives every word weknew would be scrutinized and could be radioactive and there was honestly a fear of making it worse honestly a fearof saying the wrong thing and throwing gas on the fire I mean it was atum you're kind of you know we felt like we were screwed if we spoke and we were screwed if we were silent and so we figured the best thing we could do isjust deliver here give you a thing that was better um and in hindsight obviously thatwasn't the right decision but that's that was the mindset at the time was we needed to Simply show you what we meantby giving you something better rather than try to say oh we're working on it because we felt like in that environmentthat was as likely to make it worse is better uh I guess what when that responseeventually occurred you're saying that there was a lot of uh thought and preparation put in and that any words that you said uh could backfireenormously prior to this conversation I Googled the phrase I didn't even type itreally I just typed the words onto Google I typed the words they won and then put a space and the third suggestedresult without having pressed enter was they won and so did we in light of the response to that and uhI guess my question is if if in fact there was so much work being put into that initial response uh how did we endup with what we got like who wrote that and who signed off on that I uh Ihonestly don't know um everything I signed by the way I wrote so if my name's on it I typed the words now that doesn't mean I didn'ttake input while I was typing but everywhere if I put my name on it I wrote itum and I honestly don't know who contributed to the unsigned statement before I started posting the thing thatI was working on was the deliverable 1.2 the actual thing and the process for howwe were going to move forward from this and you know bringing the the feedback process and the play test process to the table to get the community involved assoon as possible that was what I was working on uh for all this I I the the statement that came out on the Fridayum I read it around the same time you didokay so essentially this was not communicated go ahead yeah go ahead live sorry uh I just wondered how did youfeel when you when you read that what did you think of it I was not pleased with what we hadposted um I you know this is this is one of the things that inspired me to take a personal uh to put myself into this byname and take ownership of this because I that was not acceptable for me that's not us that's not who we should beum and I felt like this this needed to you know be less of a committee thing and uh more of a more of a d d thingum um well there were other aside from just that specific phrasing there were otherissues that folks had flagged up uh the biggest of which is that the leaked uhversion of the ogl that people saw was always intended to be a draft and thatWizards of the Coast had always intended to ask for Community feedback can you speak to why if this was thecase that the leaked ogl included a place to actually sign it that itincluded as I understand it mention of specific dates as to when things would go into effect dates that had alreadypassed by the time that the I think by around the time that Wizards even responded and uh not only that but whyif this was explicitly a draft why a simple like even if uh why itcould not have been released immediately a statement immediately saying uh this is just a draft what you are all seeingis not at all representative of what we had planned uh we are currently working on it and maybe set a due date any sortbecause that could have fit under the the banner of communication uh so just to reiterateum why uh why was the ogl uh worded the way it was including having places tosign in specific dates specified and why then if that is the case did Wizards the coast say nothing because I I personallyfind that very difficult to believe uh given the apparent progress that had already been made to the ogl 1.2so every document that isn't published is to some extent a draft right untilit's published then that's the final version so when I'm when we're making a book for example we have draft versions of the books that don't get publishedbecause we're making changes and those are all drafts until they're published and with a legal document it looks everybit like the final one because any version could be the final one but isn't until it's final and published one onewas never final was never published it did contain the things that it would need when it would eventually bepublished such as dates which were changed as we continued edit the document and places to sign becauseultimately there would be a need for people to agree to it um and so those those things are allpresent in a final document they are also president present in a draft because they draft if approved ifeverybody likes it becomes the final and so that's I mean that's it's to me it's maybe I don't know it seems alittle bit um I like a weird thing to get hung up on because of how drafts work but I'm inthe book business so I see draft all the time so maybe that's why I see it that way um uh and what about the second part ofthe question uh why there was in light of the fact that it was apparently a draft why was there no responsewell I think that gets back to the conversation we were just having earlier about what was hanging up our responsesum the the immediate reaction the strength of the reaction uh caused people to be concerned about anything wesaid be incredible or not we're adding fuel to the fire or making it worse and I think that caused some hesitationum do you think that the hesitation paid off given what happened when it wasoriginally released in hindsight I would have much preferred to take a much more active communicationstance on that uh and to be much more responsive and to you know get the conversation goingum much sooner and much more um responsibly than we were and yeah you know hindsight 2020 uh atthe time as it was unfolding it was a combination of is is this asbad as it's going to get is it going to get worse will we make it worse if we talk will we not we'll make it better if we talkit was it was a tough spot um because we care so much about thecommunity and everybody who was being hurt by this and at the same time so we were like how do we make this better isit better if we say something that's better if we don't say something let's just deliberate let's just give them the the new one that's not that doesn't haveall these things in it that they're worried about uh so which you know in hindsight ismaybe not the right thing would it be fair to say then uh that atthe very least there may have been too many uh well I guess you've already I guess thebetter question is were there dissenting voices about the uh oh the ogl one pointuh I guess the 1.1 prior to the leaks uh which indicated that there wereum were those voices from within Wizards to the coast or without Wizards of the Coast or bothboth for sure both um and in the in any large group of people in order to get something doneyou have a vigorous debate and then at some point you reach a point of commitment as a group and if you know iffor example I still disagree at that point my job is to say okay I disagree and I'm committing because we need tomove forward and that doesn't mean I stopped disagreeing but it does mean that we are going to proceed and I willdo the best I can to deliver this thing that we've decided to deliver and I and I think the flaw there was that thedissenting voices were not given enough of a microphone we're not given enough of a presence in the room uh we're notgiven enough weight to change the decision but they were certainly present we certainly heard them we certainly hada debate going on both from our internal and our external feedback and as I said we were already changing the documentwhen it leaked so the feedback was moving then it was moving the ball it was moving the needle and then thedocument became published or public I should I should say it was never published um became public while we were stillmoving it Forward based on that input input and that input was very strong from the folks who who voiced itum you know there's people on my team whose opinion I respect very much who were quite against it uh and it you knowmoving moving the opinion of large groups unfortunately is not a fast thing um and it just it took us a while tomove it and in the meantime uh it went public does that mean that the dissentingvoices were the minority in Wizards at the time so the majority of of everyonewas well we didn't we didn't we didn't pull everybody of courseum so I would say that uh the the each person had a different perspective sothere might be people who are mostly focused on protecting rip um and there might be people who are mostly focused on hey I came from athird party Creator Community I'm going to go back to it when my job here is done I need to make sure that that's still a healthy Community this is badyou can't do this and different you know so different people come at it from different perspectives hey it's my job I'm in legal I'm supposed to give us allthe tools we can we have as an organization to protect us okay so I'm going to give you the strongest language I can so everybody had their point ofview at the table that was legitimate and was coming from a good place uh and so your question was it a minority Iwould say it wasn't loud enough in the room and that's what's changing is we're giving much more of a voice tothe folks on my team myself included who are closer to the community and would be able to catch this kind of thing infuture and have enough volume to prevent it and how are you uh enacting that likehow are you giving them a voice well it's a couple things first of all by moving everything into the CreativeCommons we've just taken this whole discussion off the table I mean that's a one-way door we can't unring that Bell so there's no there'sno taking back the SRD and the openness of d d it's out there it's done so thisliteral example can never happen again because we can't we we didn't evendecide to do it with language we just did it mechanically like you don't have to take our word for it that's just how the license worksum and so this particular problem literally can't happen again um now should we in future be looking atcorporate strategies company strategies that would impact the d d Community nowfolks like me and my and the leaders of my creative team are in are in the conversationso you've essentially been given authority to be able to influence these decisions is what you're saying you andyour team have been getting I was greater Authority in order to influence these decisions I would say greaterrespect um because Authority for each decision needs to rest with a different person depending on what kind of decision we're making uh that being said uh being heardand being respected is important uh and I will say um to to her credit I know she's gottena lot of um you know bad uh Cynthia has gotten a lot of um you know negative opinionabout her but she listens and she does change based on information and she's one of the most empathetic c-suitepeople I've ever worked with uh by a country mile so um I am confident that when she says she's going to listenshe's going to listen mm-hmm okay um before I move on to a topic that uhyou uh actually just started to touch on I did want to ask can you give specificson who was being met with beforehand uh before like uh because I'd put a pinin that jumping back to the pin and pulling it out uh can you give specifics on who those meetings were taking likewho those meetings were with uh any of them um I don't have that list in front of meof exactly who we were talking to but it you know the it's the the biggest creators out there I know that was oneof the criteria was like what's what's Their audience size you know uh I mean we we spoke to Piezo we spoke to koboldwe you know spoke to critical role I mean and each conversation was different it was because each Creator is differenteach person's each each group's thing that they create is different and so it's not like everybody got the sameconversation because not everybody was in the same place or had the same questions uh so there were I mean but itwas like that it was like okay who are the ones that are the top Publishers out there who are who are have large audiences that they're serving becausethose are the ones who are going to really have the best sense of what's right okay um all right well I want to touch onwhat you mentioned when uh you were talking about how the you were acknowledging how the the Creative Commons now covers all of the SRD 5.1 uhhere's my question is it the intention of Wizards of the Coast to add one D andD content to this SRD we are I mean one DND isn't finishedright now so I can't really tell you what all the content is yet because we haven't finished writing it uh but I will say the intention to add thecontent yeah the intention is that um all of the new up rules updates thatwe're doing um including the stuff we're publishing in 2024 this being called one DND right now uh all of that will remain the SRDwill be updated to remain compatible with all of that now exactly how that compatibility is maintained is somethingthat I'm going to leave with the Jeremy Crawford and Crawford and the rules designers maybe it's we put the exact rules language into the SRD maybe it'swe do some bridging language like for example the new rules update will refer to species not race well so the SRDstill uses race so we might put some language in there that says hey where you see the word race use the word species and you know that's what I meanby bridging language just to connect the dots for how stuff works in SRD versus how to work in the rules update butit'll be some combination of those things the one thing I can guarantee right now is it'll be 100 compatible anything you build with the SRD willwork with the new rules okay uh is there are there plans to potentially introducea new ogl that is specific to one DND I don't think so I don't see the valuein it if you know the I mean Creative Commons is such a great open license I think if uh you know at such time as wedecided to um put more stuff out into the uh out into the public space we'd doit through probably Creative Commons I think you know the I'm no interest in getting into the Ojo business I'd ratherbe in the D D business okay so there's uh just to be clear there's no plans for us one d dessentially becoming like a closed system where it's like well uh what everything that was five uh fifthedition and everything prior is now covered by that we're cutting that free y'all can have it and we're building ourown thing and this is our new Venture no no we yeah we don't even think of it as a different Edition we think of it as anevolution of fifth edition um that's why we call it one d d instead of putting a number on it um we don't I mean people like to callit six Edition they're gonna call it another Edition they might even call it 5.5 I don't know because it feels a little bit more like what happened asthree got evolved into 3.5 but really what we're doing is we think fifth edition is great and we think itcould be better we think it could play faster it could play Easier it could provide more room for role play sothere's stuff like that we want to do to improve it but we're not trying to replace itokay um so at the beginning of this we talked about how the the oh the new ogl wasdesigned in order to try and combat like big corporations uh big mediacorporations specifically or new various new technologies um and that this has been planned for awhile well obviously since the new ogl is no longer happening what plans does Wizards then have to tryand address those issues we're leaning hard on the community honestly um we looked at it and said allright there's I mean there's some things that one can do through Creative Commons like we can say hey you can't you needto pull our attribution you know so you can't like put d d the name d d on it or whatever so there'ssome small things we can do that might discourage some Bad actors but really um what we're counting on especially forthings like the hateful content stuff we were worried about we're counting on the community um because you know it's uh demonstratedit's been demonstrated time and time again not least of which just now that this is a strong and vocal and activeCommunity uh and so rather than counting on a legal document to give us personally the room to act we're goingto be counting a lot on the strength of the community and supporting the actions of the community to combat things thattry to come in and take over the space or try to scam people um you know through nfts or whatever Ifeel pretty confident that this community is going to catch on to that and make noise and we would rather bewith you uh making that noise again something bad then uh than trying to put it in a legal documentokay um so I know that there were a number of concerns uh with the uh the ogi I thinkeven the ogl 1.2 that had been proposed that there were Provisions in there thattalked about uh potentially uh I guess shutting down a a project ifit does not align with Wizards values uh the concern by much of the community Imean many of our some of our Show members as many many of our fans fit into uh numerous minority groups uhthere has been a fear raise that if hypothetically there was turnover at Wizards of the Coast and I say a heavilyconservative leadership took over uh and suddenly say Pro lgbtq Plus content isnow considered harmful and defensive uh is that a is is the kind of action thatwas proposed in the ogl 1.2 still a possibility is that still something that Wizards is looking towards having thatsort of authority and if so what protections are being put in place to prevent something like that happeningthat's a similar response to the what about outside actors and new technologies coming in and making a messum the community are the ones who tell us when we publish something hateful or racist so that we can take action on itand we expect that they will tell other people the same thing and so we're going to count on that community and supportthat community in in helping all content creators to keep the game ever moreinclusive ever more open ever more welcoming so we won't be doing it through legal language we'll be doing it by supporting the voices who are callingout for improved inclusivity and improved openness we're working on a Content policy because people asked heywhat what do you even consider hateful so we feel like we should publish something that says what we consider hateful and something that is adaptableand something that can grow with time as Society wakes up and opens its eyes andthat will only apply to us of course because we don't you know we're not we're we don't have a legal structure inplace to apply to anybody else but we feel like you should know what our standards are and we feel like you should be able to participate in helpingus improve our standards so we're working on a Content policy to open the doors on that sum but that those twothings together are how I'd answer your question we're counting on the community and we're going to show you where our heads at on all thoseum I think counting on the community is is definitely you know all well and good you know feedback is great but is thereany kind of intent to you know reflect on these things before they are put out to the community sothat the community doesn't have to kind of be relied on um for this information are you going tohave maybe like Community leaders who can like take a look over things like for example you hadum the what was the the monkey race that was in the hadozi yeah yeah like youknow stuff like that is there going to be somebody there who can just like Point things out that may get kind oflike overlooked like without it getting to the community point and then everything blows up yeah yeah so for ourown for things that we publish um I mean we can't really exercise oversight over anybody else we just gotto keep an eye on our house um and so for the things that we publish we have a thorough inclusion reviewprocess right now where we have uh external uh inclusion reviewersum inclusivity reviewers multiple two or three usually look over every word that we publish give us a complete report onthe things that we need to to take action on we figure out what we're going to take action on WE advise some of thethings we're how we're taking action on their feedback and then we publish it and so we do have alreadyI would I say already as of last fall but going forward it is an establishedpolicy now for everything we published and we're also going back and anything we reprint we're going through all our old content as we reprint it and puttingit through that same rigor so um you know when you see the the reprint of course estrad when it comes out wehave some things that we need to do to that to make it better and we're going to do it based on these outside expertswho've advised us on this uh so that's that's our approach internally um and then also in the content policy you seecoming forward we have some some ways for the community as well to to officially advise us of things so it'sit's both we do it before we even publish it get some experts you know and take it very seriously and I will saythe reports that I've seen in the action plans that I've seen for the things we're publishing are pretty open I amnot seeing much resistance to any of the feedback the team is uh happy to havethe feedback and excited to be able to do something to make the game better uh okay I I wanted to jump in then andwhen asked when did uh d d start using cultural consultants for its projectsand then I guess my next question would be why were they not using it soonerbecause I I'm I mean the indication even what you just said is that they didn't start until at least last fall or thevery least last year whereas other major Outlets including I think some of theones that you mentioned have been uh when you the people that uh d d was Consulting with about the ogl 1.1 werehave you been using and publicly openly recommending the use of cultural consultants and so forth for years uhwhy the slow movement on that well we were using them it just wasn't thorough it wasn't that every word wentpast a reviewer and now the difference is every word goes past a reviewer andin fact every word goes past multiple outside reviewers uh so there were spot reviews done of things that we thoughtmight be problematic um for example the the vastani in cursorstrad have already been revisedheavily once with advice of of uh cultural Consultants so we have used them in the pastum what we were not doing is 100 percent with you know at least two Consultantsevery word we publish that's the difference going from sum to all uh like with the hadozi for examplethere was there wasn't suspicion based on the past of that particular race that there may be some red flags to be to payattention to there are a couple things that went on with that one um so short version is itwas not run by a cultural consultant of any kind um to catch that and that partic theparticular uh the there was a particular paragraph in there that reallyum made the connection that to to past depictions that we really didn't intend to thatum got in there by kind of a uh and outside the normal flow thing a senior person who is very trusted wrote it andvery few eyes got on it before it got into the final draft and so that was so it's two it was two breakdowns inprocess one we were not reviewing everything and so nobody had reviewed it and it even got in there outside thenormal process so we've corrected both of those things we have a much greater rigor on our basic processes and we'vealso layered in multiple independent uh inclusivity reviewers on everything we publishum uh it seems to me that uh we did uh an app I say this because we did anepisode actually about the previous version of the hadozi from like 3.5 Edition and uh even I have my dad knowsnothing about d d uh so I just with him I described to him the the general waythat the previous version had existed uh and as I kept going his face went moreand more from quizzical to uh deeply horrified and I guess in light of thatwith how uh kind of undeniably the previous editions had the hadozisituated is essentially a parallel or metaphor for like the American slave tradeit just seems like a big oversight to let one person then be responsible forwriting a significant portion because it's not like the backstory was long that was published in the new version tobe responsible for published for writing in a specific uh a significant portion of the new lore the new official lorefor the race and not having that checked over yeah uh that's correct that that was amistake it was taken very seriously and some internal actions were taken as a result we did take it extremely seriously uh the other thing is we wehave a d d has a long history it's got a long and deep lore that goes back tosome really troubling stuff uh and so we're in the a place where we want toacknowledge and bring forward some of the cool Nostalgia but also fix thebroken stuff fix the stuff that was wrong about it and uh it's it's in that space it's very possible for somebodymeaning well to make what they think is a nostalgic callback that actually dredges up with that hook a whole bigwad of terrible stuff that we did not want in the in there in the first place uh so while I can understand how themistake was made that does not mean the mistake was forgiven and it's not me the mistake was not acted onum so yeah we took it very seriously and uh um it's not something that can happenagain with the current structure uh we'll I guess uh speaking of Wizard'sinternal structure uh there was I'm sure you're aware uh that the popular TickTock and YouTube Creator d d shorts published a video uh very recently claiming to have verified Insidercommunication from employees at Wizards of the Coast and among the most disturbing uh leaks were repeatedindications that Wizards of the Coast isn't a safe work environment for employees uh they've specifically namedChris KO I hope I'm pronouncing his last name correctly as someone who routinely has uh quote outbursts and verballyattacks employees I can actually I I wrote down the quote it says KO verbally attacked many individuals across thecompany to my knowledge almost every person he attacked has now left the company since it was clear neither theleadership nor HR were going to do anything about it uh which also follows on earlier statements and leaks frompast years concerning unsafe work environments and lack of diversity such as Orion blacks statements back in 2020which Wizards in fact publicly apologized for uh what are you doing asan executive to ensure that your employees of all different backgrounds have a safe work environmentso there's a number of things first of all uh just in my personal space on my own teamthe place that where I have the most influence uh my Approach is always to take the phrase that I always givepeople is I need good information not good news and what and that that is that's an important thing to State andit's important thing to demonstrate it's important when someone brings me something that's a concern my first response is thank you I need thatinformation in order to make things better rather than getting defensive rather than you know shutting it down Ineed the information please give me the information tell me the things so that I can do things about it and that approachpermeates throughout the team and so I think certainly not on the digital team which is Chris Ko's team so I can'tspeak for my my actions on my team are not liable to make a huge impact on that team's work environment it's a you knowit's a big group and each team sort of has its own local culture and in my own local culture on on the on the dungeonthe dragons you know core Studio team where we make all the books and game and stuff uh it's always about being open Ihave multiple conversations with the team I have an open lunch every week that people can just drop in and tell mewhatever they want and the more they see that that is actually true that there are no repercussions from it I've onlybeen in this job for a few months so I have to build a track record I have to create I can't just declare it to besafe I have to demonstrate it to be safe and so I'm doing that and my intent is that over time people will go all righthe means what he says when I raise an issue he acts on it he doesn't shut me down he doesn't retaliate great andthat's I think the responsibility of every senior leader especially if we're going to grow as a society to keep thatdoor open especially to marginalized folks and in addition we have Anonymous feedback channels whereby people can canraise issues if they don't feel safe doing so um but I I take this extremelypersonally I have gotten in trouble at other workplaces for uh maybe going too far as a leader in going after thesethings so it's um yeah it's not something that can be trivialized we cannot do our best workas creators if we don't feel safe and we cannot do our best work as members of society if we can't address the hardthings um um I well you mentioned that uh thereare separate teams and each team essentially has their own individual culture uh that's fair but is there notan overall system in place to prevent that kind of mistreatment fromcontinuing or give employees um reliable ways to have action takenbecause the indication at least in the quote is that whatever systems may be inplace simply are not working yeah there are systems in place for that um now I've not having been in the loopuh on exactly what was raised to whom and how that fed into the process that we have in place for addressing theseconcerns I can't speak to exactly how that person's particular concerns were raised and uh not addressed or addressedbut I can say there is a system in place there are investigations that are conducted when um you know issues likethis issues of you know a hostile workplace and harassment and those things come up uh those those are alwaysconfidential by their very nature uh and so I I am not allowed to know what'sgoing on with that but I can say the the processes exist and I have been party to some that have uh reached some prettysignificant conclusions and uh have resulted in real action so I do know that that feedback and the system thathandles it does result in real action uh I can't speak to what's going on whatthe particular person's um own experience was but I can't say there is a system and I have seen itwork um so uh thinking about the lack ofdiversity that we mentioned earlier one of the things that we couldn't wrap ourheads around when we were talking about the herdosi is the fact that there was nobody internally who would have pickedup on that kind of thing like the very fact that there has to be an external kind of audit kind of says that you knowmaybe there should be some more diversity in the company as it is do you think that's something that you canspeak on like are there any plans to be more inclusive with your hiring process yeah we we're pretty aggressive actuallyin in pursuing uh inclusivity in our hiring process and I'm happy to say that uh certainly in the last couple of yearsof hiring uh We've made a difference um on the D D team in particular and partof that honestly is that the d d audience has been growing and becoming more diverse which is great because I you know D D players and creators existon a spectrum right every player is a Creator we make a stuff up at the table that's the whole point of the game um and then you know hey then maybe I'ma DM and I write a world and I don't want to published world and eventually I'm a big you know uh you know none of cobalt plus right I'm uh uh criticalrole or whatever so everybody in our community is a Creator and when we hire people onto our team we hire from thatpool of creators and so as the pool of players becomes more diverse so too does the pool of creators become more diverseand that makes it more and more possible for us to hire top quality creators who are also from diverse backgrounds um anduh you know and and have all kinds of things to bring to the table I think in the in the case of the hadoops in particular again a big part of it wasthat our internal process also wasn't followed so even the people on our team who would have seen it didn't see thattext they didn't get a chance to go hey that's a problem before it was live and so that was so we had an internalbreakdown of our existing process as well as needing to get some outside eyes on ituh in terms of hiring diversity um this actually speaks to one uh onething that Orion black said in their statements which is that they believed that they were essentially A diversityhire which look we're all here we're all in favor of diversity But ultimately I think what makes the difference in acompany like this is if you have minority people in positions of power and while I'm sure that there have beennumerous hirings of people from a variety of different minorities at least in the case of racial minoritiesI've met a number of people who including yourself who are fairly highup in D and D uh and I think every single one of them has been white andalso I think all of them have been CIS men not to say that everybody there is a CIS man but it seems to be consistentlythat we have white CIS men still at the top of these groups can you identify anyspecific positions of like significant power um because you've got you got I meaneven on the D D team you still got uh you've still got Jeremy Crawford uh you still got uh Mike Merles and so forthwhat can you identify any specific uh positions that have like higherranking positions that have been filled by people of say racially diverse backgrounds uh I think if you look atthe the credits of our books um you'll see some lead designers there who are are uh not CIS men uh you will also seea lot of primary authors on sources uh these are folks who are coming upthrough the ranks and proving themselves and earning their respect not because ofwho they are but because of how they are as professionals which is the best kind of respect right you know you don't wantto be respected because you're the diversity hire you want to be respected because you're awesome at your job and that's uh and that's happening more andmore um this you know look guys like me we're we're leaving uh the workforce tobe blunt and we're also not this is not the face of the hobby anymore I'm not the majority of this hobby anymore uhand I I and so it's important to me that my team of creators look like my playersand have the lived experience that my players do and I think there's been mistakes made in years past where peopleassumed that d d players were all you know white dudes in a basementum which is which has been a faulty assumption for a lot of years and gets more and more false every day and soit's in my viewpoint honestly guys like me you can't can't leave soon enough um for this Hobby and we owe you goodgames we owe you good products and so we need to make sure that everybody working on it is real good at it and that meansnot just hiring but also developing right when we bring people in who are good we need to empower them give themmore room to run give them guidance on what we learned when we were creating stuff so that they can create greatstuff too and then you know I always hire people smarter than me so that I can get out of their way that's myApproach uh and so as as long as we stay on this trajectory yeah this is this is the face of d dwill literally change okay um I we're I know I see we're runningrelatively low on time so I got two uh big questions that I wanted to get to uhthe first is that many people suspect that one DND is going to be uh stronglyit's gonna be at least with the release of One D there's going to be a very strong focus on digital platforms likevtts that one d d could in could end up being kind of what many spec fourthedition was originally supposed to be uh as I'm sure you know fourth edition was supposed to have a vtt that it came withit that didn't end up happening and that caused you know further difficulties in terms of playing the game uh it's theirstrong suspicions especially with the announcement of the vtt and the the clips that were shown or the images thatwere shown in the in the announcement that uh one d d is going to be like a heavily online game and that Wizardsfocus is Shifting more toward primarily producing online content in that uh Ithink the phrase that was used in in D shorts videos that books would then be like collector items or like specialthings that you could buy uh but that were not uh key to the experience and that everything else was going to bedigital in terms of physical books rather we're going to be like collector's items so our our goal is to give you more waysto play so it's and not instead uh we're gonna keep making the game as we dotoday uh and that's also why we love all the work that's being done by all the vtts out there uh we think that's greatit's been essential for people to be able to play that way and we think that's going to continue to be true we would also like to offer a cool looking3D space if people want to play in that too but it's not ever meant to replace it's just meant to be additive here'sanother way you could play if you like that here's another way you could play if you like that uh and you know I could certainly see if people were trying tomake forward-looking discussions they might say well what if everybody started playing that way we ever make books and then you know I could see somebodysaying from that well maybe then books would become Collectibles that's not the strategy though the strategy is to giveyou all the choice and then we go where your interests lie we go where your choices lie I mean we're we're here tomake a game for the players and so what we want to do is put as many things on the table for you as we can and leaninto the things that you like best okay uh Liv did you have anything to jump in with before I go to the finalquestion um oh I think the final question deserves a lot of time so yeah let's let's jumponto that okay uh finally how does uh how does d d in Wizards of the Coast inuh plan on rebuilding trust with the community uh through actions I mean you you behaveyour way out of a trust problem you don't talk your way out of it so I mean obviously we'll have conversations like this this is important and talking isitself in action I'm not denying that or setting that aside and it's the actions that are going to count what do we doand that's why we started with the strongest possible action we could which is all right here you go it's inCreative Commons now um go to town uh no clear signal we could send about ourintentions here uh and uh as more concerns get raised we take action on them as well so Arc it is on us now tobe responsive and good actors in the space and that's so some of this some ofthis our plans for the future is going to be like well we're going to be watching to see what you all needum and acting on that uh you know we want to make a game that you all want to play and uh that includes making it an acommunity and an environment where people feel happy playing where people aren'tum you know uh concerned about what's going to happen to their favorite Creator or their favorite stuff down theroad so uh yeah it's for us it's all about actions not words at this pointum and we intend to be active okay uh do you have I guess um ifthere's a message that you could give to those who were whose trust was broken I know that there are many within thecommunity who have who no longer really feel comfortable playing the game because of they feel as though uhWizards of the Coast and d d kind of or at least the corporate figures in those organizations kind of showed their handon that there's not very much that the focus is ultimately on uh on profits andnot on the people and not on the fans and the creators who have helped boost the game uh to the heights that it hasbeen and the heights that has reached uh and make the game so special do you havea message to those who feel uh betrayed essentially by what has happened withthis whole situation watch what I do not what I say anddecide for yourself if what we're doing is enough for you to trust us and either way play your game with your friends youdon't need to have us at the table if you don't want to you know your game is for youum we'll make stuff for it and if you want it we'll be over here making it you can come get it um but honestly we should not be messingup your game you should be playing your game you don't you don't honestly youshouldn't need to trust Wizards of the Coast to play dungeon the dragons I I guess is what I'd really say uh sowe have work to do to build back that trust but I don't I would hate for a lack of trust in meand our team to get in the way of you having fun with your friends because it's your friends didn't breakthis you didn't break this very true uh well I guess there you have it uhthank you very much Kyle uh for joining us in for answering these questions uhyeah it's we I guess we will see how things go on we will continue I can Ican assure you we will continue to be watching uh your actions uh and and uh Iguess we will judge from there but thank you very much for what you said yeah I really appreciate the time thank you so much yeah thank youokay so that was our uh interview with Kyleum and now we're here to chat about um you know what we thought about whatwent on yeah well uh I felt like Kyle had uh I couldbut we said this just before starting to record this outro I think it's fair to say Kyle had for the most part all theright answers and I'm doing quotes around right answers um I think that there were a lot ofcases where he he dodged having to give answers thatmight have otherwise been uncomfortable so such as the questions about Chris Ko's Behavior where he's like heessentially said I'm not on that team and if you notice he never mentioned him by name he only ever said to thatindividual uh and so forth which I I think was in reference to the situation with Chris uh it seemed as though it wasvery much like oh you know I'm just over here and all the teams are separate things to do with me and it's likebut if you you must you you must know this dudemust have a reputation yeah yeah um so yeah there was a few instanceslike that where there was some obfuscation um but uh yeah we were told not to holdback and I don't think we did I think that we asked every question that we meant to ask but umI don't know I feel like that we yeah we just didn't get straight answers particularly yeah um which is a littlebit disappointing but what are you gonna do I guess yeah and I think we got some straight answersI mean there were some things that it's like oh okay this is an unequivocal statement that you're making you're there are currently no plans for uh oneDND to become its own closed system there are no uh plans for one DND to have its own new ogl apparently uh thereare no like there it's all going into the old one okay there's no plans for basically any of the stuff that peoplewere freaking out about with ogl 1.1 and 1.2 okay that's a pretty clear stance thathe's taking that if in fact down the line we see is not true then you know wewill be able to say hey that was a lie yeah I would like to yeah yeah there were specifics uh as you said there weresome things where it's like okay I'm glad that we at least got him to say which uh some at least some of thegroups that they spoke to ahead of time yeah I wasn't expecting actual names butI'm glad that you pushed on that because I don't think we would have gotten it otherwise um yeah itit the the answers that were given were you know they all made sense but it just itjust it makes it's hard to believe that they weren't all thoroughly examined beforehand and theseand like every question that we asked was anticipated and you know they had ananswer set in place for each of them you know they wouldn't have done this if they didn't have that advice yeahum yeah they yeah um they they absolutely and actually they had asked for the questions aheadof time which we did not send them the questions ahead of time uh they said that this was specifically so that theycould uh I'm not gonna quote them uh but because I have the email in front of me but I believe they said it was so thatthey could make sure that they had all the informations because if sometimes people are raising legal issues and soforth and since he's not part of the legal team he can't really speak to that uh soit as yeah it could that could be the case if we take them at their word then sure that was the reason why they wereasking it could also be because they were trying to uh be prepared for specific questions and know maybe thetone of the interview so that they could be prepared um but they didn't even need that becausethey definitely discussed everything that we offered to them yeah I I'm withyou live I remain unconvinced on a number of topics uh specific basically everything about the ogl 1.1 I'm like umlike okay look maybe there was in fact some work on a later I don't know onlater changes that wasn't I'd still it still to me does not makesense that they could not have publicly said acknowledged but I don't really know it felt like uh infor full transparency we only had an hour to speak with him we had a lot of different topics that we wanted to getto and so we had to start making decisions about what we were we're going to push on what we weren't going to pushon that sort of thing like if it was and that became a thing where it's like well he's given an answerlook I'm not really sure what else to say except I don't believe you yeah noit it just it just felt very I don't know artificial it made the team sound reallyincompetent in a number there were a number of instances where his answer was basically like yeah we just didn't haveit together man like it but stated in a very uh a much more eloquent wayofficial roundabout way I agree no um yeah it just it just feltyeah it felt placating in a way uh whichI mean yeah that was the goal yeah it was a damage control interview yeah umwe have not really talked much about uh our individual responses or ourresponses a show um there's a there's a good chance that we will be talking more about ourresponses to show down the line but uh I feel comfortable to at least say whereI'm coming from do you want me to say first liver do you want to say where you're coming from or what we've talked about at the show okayum essentially in my opinion what uh the ogr that we have and had andcontinue to have is like such a unique thing for a large corporation to have inplace that I was amazed that it even existed and uh in my opinion uhultimately they were we had a great thing we continue to have a great thing thankfully but they were within theirrights to change it sure because it's their thing yeah but the way in whichthey were going about changing it the the fact that the leaked document wouldhave given a week for creators to sign and agree to it uh the fact thatI still don't buy that it was a draft I still don'tit's just yeah to me that's like the fact that it look the fact that they'vebeen working on it for years and the fact that it was posted uh or that they had approached people with it indicatesto me that if there were changes to be made they were probably going to be pretty minor yeah because why why wouldthey have not gone straight to the community in a case like that it just doesn't make senseno he doesn't sorry yeah you can yeah and as suchum I have nothing against the game of d d uh I generally believe I get theimpression at least that Chris may have been telling the truth not Chris uh that Kyle may have been telling the truth uhwhen he was talking about his love for the game and so forth I I don't Iobviously can't know for sure but it seems that he does genuinely love the game of d d and does overall seem tohave positive um intentions towards at least uh the gameum but I my my trust in Wizards of the Coast and d d has an organization iscertainly shaken and so I'm not I'm still playing d d like inprivate games I don't necessarily have a problem with that I commend anybody who is switchingum I personally feel uh I can say uh that one thing that is unequivocal twothings is number one my trust in this system is broken uh in their corporation uh they have I to me they have stillshown their hand and now they are trying to fix that but to me it's still going to take a lot of effort and work tobuild back that trust I'm gonna need to see a lot more than even just an interview if the things he's saying in the interview are carried through theattitude that he brought forth in the interview is actually followed then I'm like great but that's gonna be that's gonna need to be months of activity oryears of activity for me to really yeah that as you said it remains to be seen that is one thing the other thing isthis it is not healthy for the ttrpg landscape to have one uh one giant gamecontrolling so much of the space and I it's it I mean just by how big a dealthis was does and how many creators were affected by this and it wasn't just oh Dand D makes up a section of my sales for a lot of these people it's like the main thing or the only thing that they do andeven on our show it's almost the only thing that we play and so that's that tells me that it is time to startboosting uh an even more proactive role in trying to boost other games and other creatorsin the space and so my intention is going forward for uh future actual playsto feature D less often umexactly and we already have at least one uh I think two two recordings scheduledthat will explicitly help promote other ttrpgs uh there are a couple of ofactual play things that we have already recorded or at least partially recorded that use D and D that happened prior tothe ogl nonsense we're gonna keep those like if it's already done recording we're not going to re-record it and ifit's already partially recorded we're not going to force the cast to learn a new system and then re-record the wholeAdventure uh so that stuff will stay with d d but there's a good chance thata lot of other games and planned series that we had for this year as well as uh more one shots that we plan uh we'll befocusing on things other than BNB down the line absolutely um yeah no I I mean on dice breakup uhwhich is uh the channel I do in my day job um we've discussed like the idea of likemaybe we like possibly would to lean more into d d just like kind of overall but then it was always like a resoundingno because um like it just it just goes to show that youcan't rely on one system you really can't um and there are so many so many outthere that you know people really need to pay more attention to um but yeah everything you said Jeremy Icompletely agree with um it's yeah it this whole thing has been abit of a fiasco but at least it was a wake-up call so yeah you know yeahthat's that's good and I will say uh we have had talks about the degree to which the show will be focusing on DND contentgoing forward even aside from actual play uh but in terms of discussion uh I feel comfortable to publicly say thatI'm in favor of taking less of a focusedrole we'll see what ends up happening this is not me saying this is a decision this is me letting you know uh just as aCreator I guess I am in favor of not I mean we'll probably finish the classdeep I'm in favor of that but we'll see about the rest for me yeah you have oneclass left that's why it's just a sorcerer one it's not the sorcerer'sfault um but yeah like I got ttrpg it's coming out the Wazoo like you know wecan we can learn other systems it's great it'll be it'll be fun it's going to be a brand new chapter for 3bh I'mvery excited about it so yeah um with that I guess let us know what you think about this and let us knowwhat your thoughts are out there in in our Discord on Twitter and patreon let us know because look we don't knoweverything uh that's partly why it's taking us so long to respond because we were there's a lot of waiting to seewhen it first was first broke I was like is it as bad as people are saying I was waiting to hear from like lawyers andhear more details about it and you know as we heard more leaks and lawyers came to weigh in a lot of times the lawyersdidn't even agree with each other or the lawyers would miss aspects that were specific to D and D like where they'relike well you can't you can't uh you can't copyright rule systems so what was the ogl originally doing and then peoplewill come in who actually write stuff and they're like well actually the the language used is something you cancopyright and that is very big to the deed like the whole idea the stat block and specifics of how things are writtenthe style is something you can and that is a big thing that was that people had access to that sort of thingum so yeah for me I tend to try and be cautious because I know that jumping inand just guns are blazing on the wrong side can sometimes do a lot more harmthan good the [ __ ] yeah um also with pointing out that um the questions that we asked uh to Kyle inthis interview a lot of them were prompted by uh patrons and uh Discordmembers so it's worth checking those out because we do go to our community youknow as as a source uh very often so yeah if you're interested in that just uh check check them out I'm surethere'll be links around yeah and in fact yeah not only that there were instances where multiple people hadasked versions of the same question so I just sort of collapsed them into one and in some cases I would literally put inparentheses this these people specifically had wanted to know about this thing or this many people upvotedthis particular question and that helped to boost in some cases which questions were being asked uh we had our ownquestions as well obviously but yeah um with that is there anything else we need to touch on I think you've done alot I can Jeremy we should do plugs shouldn't we bugs we can plug yeah yeah live you got something to plug yeah I'llplug myself that's always sounds so weird umit's a treat for me um I'm at the stock Magic on Twitter andI'm Olivia does stockmagic on most other things I'm also on YouTube now I'm hopefully releasing a new video tonightwe'll see maybe um so yeah go ahead and subscribe if you'd like but also subscribe to threeback halflings on YouTube and you can also find me on youtube.com forward slash dicebreaker if you want more ttrpgstuff that's not just D and D that's all right there yeah yeah uh and uh you canfollow me on Twitter at Jeremy cobb1 that's Cobb with two B's in the numberone uh but you can also follow follow me because I've reached the threshold I'mgoing to look up my username on air I've reached 150 followers yeah can I tell you what it is because I know what it isplease do yeah it is the cob Meister oh okay follow me at the cob Meister onInstagram I'm going to be posting something possibly today as of this recording or just very soon uh thank youLiv uh the cob Meister I mean I've been uh looking at it for just like oh there he issee you um yeah no I I've double checked it is correct yes yes uh and even moreimportantly than following me on the cob Meister uh there is a new show it's either coming out this week or next weekuh I'm doing with Andrew Coons of the first watch friend of the show uh he has been on three black halflings I knowwe've done a couple of Kickbacks with him that I don't think have been released yet uh and I think we also dida shire folk Spotlight with him that I think has been released already um go check out the quantum reactor itis a sci-fi movie review show uh we're we've recorded I think three episodes so far we talk about sunshine the 2007movie we talk about everything everywhere all at once uh the movie came out last year 2022 Masterpiece uh wealso talk about Moon which is 2009 film a very very good movie all three ofthose I would say each episode gets better as we solidify our style uh butyeah go check it out go follow us you can follow us on uh Twitter at Q reactorshow and I think we will also be posting to YouTube but I I think actually no Ithink on YouTube we are also Q reactor show so go check that out yeah uh you can't do it yeah go go support gosupport and we also I always have a Discord I don't know where the link to that's going to be but keep stay tunedstay tuned for that um yeah with that uh go follow the showon patreon uh specifically three black halflings now uh patreon.com TV halflings if you want to uh help and getbehind the scenes help support the show get behind the scenes stuff get Kickbacks uh like the one that Liv and Ijust recorded last week which I thought was a great conversation that we had yeah we had a fun time we just had a nice chat and we really enjoyed it so ifyou want to be a part of that you go ahead and take a listen yeah um follow us on Twitter Instagram andFacebook at three this is number three black halflings and I think that's justabout it we will see you all next time so long Shire folk sothat was a headgam podcast[/spoiler]</blockquote>

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