Kyle Brink (D&D Exec Producer) On OGL Controversy & One D&D (Summary)

The YouTube channel 3 Black Halflings spoke to WotC's Kyle Brink (executive producer, D&D) about...

The YouTube channel 3 Black Halflings spoke to WotC's Kyle Brink (executive producer, D&D) about the recent Open Game License events, amongst other things. It's an hour-plus long interview (which you can watch below) but here are some of the highlights of what Brink said. Note these are my paraphrases, so I encourage you to listen to the actual interview for full context if you have time.

OGL v1.1 Events
  • There was a concern that the OGL allowed Facebook to make a D&D Metaverse without WotC involvement.
  • Re. the OGL decisions, WotC had gotten themselves into a 'terrible place' and are grateful for the feedback that allowed them to see that.
  • The royalties in OGL v1.1 were there as a giant deterrent to mega corporations.
  • Kyle Brink is not familiar with what happened in the private meetings with certain publishers in December, although was aware that meetings were taking place.
  • When the OGL v1.1 document became public, WotC had already abandoned much of it.
  • The response from WotC coinciding with D&D Beyond subscription cancellations was a coincidence as it takes longer than that to modify a legal document.
  • The atmosphere in WotC during the delay before making an announcement after the OGL v1.1 went public was 'bad' -- fear of making it worse if they said anything. The feeling was that they should not talk, just deliver the new version.
  • Brink does not know who wrote the unpopular 'you won but we won too' announcement and saw it the same time we did. He was not happy with it.
  • 'Draft' contracts can have dates and boxes for signatures. Despite the leaked version going to some publishers, it was not final or published.
  • There were dissenting voices within WotC regarding the OGL v1.1, but once the company had agreed how to proceed, everybody did the best they could to deliver.
  • The dissenting voices were not given enough weight to effect change. Brinks' team is now involved in the process and can influence decisions.
  • The SRD release into Creative Commmons is a one-way door; there can be no takeback.
One D&D
  • The intention is that all of the new [One D&D] updates they are doing, "the SRD will be updated to remain compatible with all of that". This might be with updted rules or with bridging language like 'change the word race to species'.
  • Anything built with the current SRD will be 100% compatible with the new rules.
  • Brink does not think there is a plan to, and does not see the value, in creating a new OGL just for One D&D. When/if they put more stuff into the public space, they'd do it through Creative Commons.
  • WotC doesn't think of One D&D as a new edition. He feels it's more like what happened with 3.5. They think 5E is great, but coud be better and play faster and easier with more room for roleplay, so there is stuff they can do to improve it but not replace it.
  • WotC is leaning on the community to discourage bad actors and hateful content, rather than counting on a legal document.
  • They are working on an adaptable content policy describing what they consider to be hateful content which will apply to WotC's work (no legal structure to apply it to anybody else).
  • They now have external inclusivity reviewers (as of last fall) who look over every word and report back. They are putting old content through the same process before reprints.
  • Previously cultural consultances were used for spot reviews on things they thought might be problematic, but not everything (e.g. Hadozee).
  • The problematic Hadozee content was written by a trusted senior person at WotC, and very few people saw it before publication.
  • 'DnDShorts' video on the internal workings and management culture of WotC is not something Brinks can talk on, but it is not reflective of his team. Each team has its own culture.
  • In the last couple of years the D&D team hiring process has made the team more inclusive.
  • When asked about non white-CIS-men in leadership positions at WotC, Brinks referred to some designers and authors. He said 'guys like me, we're leaving the workforce, to be blunt' and 'I'm not the face of the hobby any more'. It is important that the creators at WotC look like the players. 'Guys like me can't leave soon enough'.
Virtual Tabletops (VTTs)/Digital Gaming
  • Goal is to make more ways to play ('and' not 'instead') including a cool looking 3D space.
  • Digital gaming is not meant to replace books etc., but to be additive.
  • The strategy is to give players a choice, and WotC will go where the player interests lie.


log in or register to remove this ad


I crit!

edit to add: I've copied the transcript into the following spoiler block. Please note it's google youtube transcript straight from the video so caveat emptor. Do not take it as verbatim. Listen to the section of the podcast your interested in before diving into commenting. You can do that by pulling up the transcript in youtube and clicking on the text you want to hear and the video will be moved to that bit.

Three Black Halflings interview Kyle Brink

hello hello

Halflings it's me oh Jeremy Cobb but Andrew V calls me Jeremy

not Renner Cobb because they already call their other friend Jer bear and the only other Jeremy on their radar was

Hawkeye so you know and Andrew V also sent us a super nice message on patreon so shout out to them for that thank you

Andrew V and I am joined today bye hello hi my name is Olivia Kennedy but

you can call me Linda yes hi yes uh so Jeremy yeah today's episode is is a

little bit of a serious one uh or like oh it's actually a very serious one because we are talking about something that is very important uh and has

affected this community more so than anything in a good long time uh if you

thought the hadozi was a big deal good Lord um where you're talking about the ogl uh

in this episode we will be in very shortly uh interviewing Mr Kyle Brink uh

who is the uh d d let's see the d d team's executive producer that's his

official title um it's uh it's yeah we are here he's he's here to talk about the ogl he has

said that nothing is off the table in terms of questions Liv how you feel about this uh it's gonna be interesting

it's gonna be great I think we should dive straight into it and because I we know the people waiting for it we are here with Kyle Brink D teams executive

producer Kyle first of all thank you so much for being here yeah sure

um happy to be here yes uh I guess my first question yes uh my first question is

in your own words why are you here uh because what's happened in our

community has affected uh creators and the Community First and hardest so

that's where I needed to go first okay um well I guess on the subject of things

affecting the community well uh this entire conversation is obviously in the wake of the ogl

controversy so uh my first question would be why is it that uh management

feels the need to change the ogl in the first place or at least felt the need to change the Ojo in the first place

yeah uh so we still have a lot of real concerns about um big media corpse moving into the d d space

um new technologies that weren't considered when the Ojo was first written um the emergence of some hateful

content that's coming around out there uh when you have a bigger Community you have a bigger Duty and uh we're just

worried about the impact of some of these things and that was the origin I will say that I've been at Wizards for a

couple years now and this was in process when I got here so these concerns have been a concern that Wizards for a long

time uh and uh I was part of the team that picked up the ball and and continued forward with it but that was

the those were the motivations behind it is is worries about and when I say big media corpse I don't mean wizards big I

mean like meta big I mean like Disney big that's the kind of stuff we were actually worried about so specifically

uh like in what way were you worried about a a company like Disney uh like

somehow interfering with d and d so under the Ogo 108 is written you know

there's quite a bit of things you could do with the SRD and um just as a for instance this wasn't a specific concern

but you asked for an example uh let's say that you were a large um social media company that had built an amazing

social media platform and then you would use those dollars to make um a virtual reality meta verse you

might say let's say you were some unnamed company that had done all those things and then you decided to make a d

d virtual reality space where people could come and play D D in VR well as

written we wouldn't be there at the table to talk with them about what's true to d d and what's not

um and we would be very concerned about where a company like that that has not had a great track record honestly with

how it manages its community and what it allows people to do on its platforms what they would do with DND

um and so we were looking for ways to be at the table when those conversations take place

okay uh so even aside from that though when it was released uh it obviously

there were the the the the reach uh the potential reach of the ogl stretched far

beyond anything like a megacorp like Disney can you provide an overview of the decision making process that went

into the original wording that was uh leaked yeah so the the things that we're in 1.1

uh and that was a terrible way to approach the goals we had in mind uh

which is why it was such an easy so it was easy for us to do a U-turn and abandon those right away because it was

one of those things where um piece by piece it seems like you're making a good decision and then you end

up in a terrible Place uh and uh we're grateful to all the feedback that was so strong and so clear that allowed us to

uh see for ourselves where we had gotten ourselves to uh the because the mission

was never about hurting the community the second the community was hurt we dropped it like a hot rock because we

didn't want that wasn't our mission um I you know the the people ask why are royalties in there well that's the idea

was if you're a giant corporation that would be a huge deterrent to you and the thinking was you can see in the the

numbers that were in there that there was supposed to be this area where it didn't matter where if you were a small Creator it would be fine that's all by

the wayside though it's very clear that that all that stuff in there was a huge problem for creators so we just we

dropped it and left because that's not what we're there for okay so you're saying that like over the course of the years that you guys spent developing the

document you lost sight of the overall scope of what who it might affect

I would say it's more that we um we lost sight I would say we lost sight of the impact of what the impact could

be on the people we weren't concerned about you know our Focus so much is on who we were concerned about uh that we

lost sight of who we were not concerned about who we wanted to thrive who wanted to help and so we accidentally as

collateral damage really really uh did it a lot would have fortunately it was

never published and never will be published but that document would clearly have done a lot of harm and you

didn't have anybody in place to oversee this before it was scheduled to be released

we had a number of people in the room uh my team was uh and and this is this is my fault was underrepresented I was

trying to protect the team from distractions like discussing a licensing agreement so we can make the game so we

can make cool supplements and books uh and I should have had more of my team in the room and that's being corrected

going forward um okay I I guess as a yes or no question

oh did you have something you wanted to jump in with um I just wanted to uh this might be

something that we'll get on to later but um there have been rumors going around in the community that

um a meeting took place between Wizards of the Coast and a number of like large d d and ttrpg creators where wizard of

the coast told them that there would be plans for the new orgl and allowed some of them to do the opt-in for like better

deals in terms of the monetization of like um their uh actual play shows or

whatever shows they're producing um and it was also confirmed by John Ritter of Kickstarter like did can you

tell us did this meeting occur who was present and what kind of deals were offered or discussed uh I wasn't present

for any meeting like that uh I mean unfortunately for this conversation I I

make the game so there are things that I'm not part of um and so that would have been another set of people at Wizards having those

conversations so I can't speak to first-hand knowledge of this just to set that table um I was aware that we were speaking to

creators because we wanted input we were doing staged feedback where we talked to some of the largest creators first to

get their feedback and then moving forward and we were going to bring it to the community for their feedback as well stage wise so that by the time we

brought it to the community it would hopefully be in a better State than it was and some of those conversation I

wasn't in those conversations but I could see how some of those conversations might have been about would you know what would a better deal

look like um but again I wasn't there so I can't speak to those specifics I could certainly see how conversations like

that could be seen as a big meeting offering sweetheart deals but once again

I wasn't present I do know that we were talking to creators ahead of time and we were soliciting their input on what a

better deal would look like did anybody well go ahead oh go ahead Jeremy oh I

was just gonna say did anybody internally uh sorry there's a little bit of a delay uh did anybody internally at

Wizards then later inform you of who these people were that were being spoken

to uh and perhaps what the specifics of any of those because you're aware that they did happen uh you know has anyone

since said who they were meeting with and what kinds of terms were discussed I

know uh I know who we were meeting with because we talked about hey who should we be reaching out to who should we talk to First about this who are the people

who are having the biggest impact in the space and would therefore have the best perspective on all this um and so you know people like

Kickstarter and and some of the larger creators you know yes I'm aware of you know who we talked to First the priority

order in which we were talking to people um but I don't know beyond that like the specifics of of the the conversations

that they had it what would come back to the the room that I was in was General like feedback that we were getting on

hey this is a problem this is a problem this is a problem so we would know what to do to fix it by the time um the 1.1

uh version of the document was made public we had already abandoned a lot of

the things that were problematic because the feedback we were getting we just hadn't published that update yet so

nobody could see it that's partly why 1.2 is so quick to come out after 1-1 because we'd already been heading in

that direction based on what we're hearing um okay well on the subject uh I I guess

put a pin on the subject of who was spoken to for a second but you mentioned uh the quickness the swiftness of the of

the response speaking of somebody who was watching the situation as it unfolded it actually

seemed like there was quite a long delay between the initial leaking and the response of over a week so my question

is if in fact the ogl 1.2 was already in progress of being developed why did it

why was there such a long delay for any kind of communication uh from Wizards or

D and D yeah this was a thing that got me personally involved more I mean I was

part of the group but this is you know as you saw very quickly afterwards I became um very personally involved in the in

the response cycle because it was killing me that it was taking so long uh and it was uh I described it as a long

delay built out of many small good decisions um we were working on this document we thought you know what at this point

people need to see action they don't need to see words so let's give them the new version okay well let's make sure this is the version we were on release

okay well I have one edit to make here I got one tweak to make here I got one and there's you have enough stakeholders each wanting to make it a little bit

better that perfect got in the way of good perfect got in the way of done and so that the silence was because we

didn't want to just say words at a time when words weren't going to cut it and the thing to release took too long to

perfect that it just it compounded into the silence and no time did anyone say you know what we should do let's not say

anything for a week and a half like that decision was never made it's what occurred because of all the small

decisions we were making minute by minute day by day because we're also watching what people were saying in the

community and we would see a new uh concern arise oh we have to make sure to address that in this too all right let's make sure to build that in and so you

just get caught in this infinite Loop of iteration and you can never publish because you're not quite ready yet you're still not quite ready you're

still not quite ready yet it's um it was it was a terrible situation to be in uh okay I have I guess two or

three responses we'll see if the third one fully materializes the first uh response is did no one at any point

during that period seeing the public outcry that was getting worse and worse

suggest even saying anything to even saying hey we are actively working on

this this was any sort of announcement essentially what yes why did nothing

happen because it's one thing to be like oh we we were delaying the big announcement but it and I guess to fully

and elucidate that point uh there have been reports from people internally uh

who have from Secret sources uh who apparently are verified uh employees of

Dungeons and Dragons and wizard of the coast who have said that there the delay was because uh they that management was

essentially waiting to see how much of a financial impact this was actually going to have and whether or not the whole

thing was going to blow over no that was not the reason for the delay definitely um seem like that just because it seemed

as though from a creative perspective and a fan perspective that nothing actually changed until the decline in d

d Beyond subscriptions like that can't be a coincidence surely well it it also can because it takes a

long time to actually modify a legal document when you have a lot of stakeholders it you can't turn on a dime and so it can't it actually couldn't

have been turned around in response to the decline in subscriptions because that would have been too fast it would have been too short a time period for a

corporation our size to pull that off with a legal document with a bunch of stakeholders um and so we were already working on

that document before the uh the um folks who decided to stop uh

subscribing decided to stop doing that it's uh the main reason that we weren't ready sorry I want to get to your uh

Jeremy I want to get to your first question about um the event did no one say we should say something yes yes we did however in

that environment where there was already such a lack of trust and already such concern over our motives every word we

knew would be scrutinized and could be radioactive and there was honestly a fear of making it worse honestly a fear

of saying the wrong thing and throwing gas on the fire I mean it was at

um you're kind of you know we felt like we were screwed if we spoke and we were screwed if we were silent and so we figured the best thing we could do is

just deliver here give you a thing that was better um and in hindsight obviously that

wasn't the right decision but that's that was the mindset at the time was we needed to Simply show you what we meant

by giving you something better rather than try to say oh we're working on it because we felt like in that environment

that was as likely to make it worse is better uh I guess what when that response

eventually occurred you're saying that there was a lot of uh thought and preparation put in and that any words that you said uh could backfire

enormously prior to this conversation I Googled the phrase I didn't even type it

really I just typed the words onto Google I typed the words they won and then put a space and the third suggested

result without having pressed enter was they won and so did we in light of the response to that and uh

I guess my question is if if in fact there was so much work being put into that initial response uh how did we end

up with what we got like who wrote that and who signed off on that I uh I

honestly don't know um everything I signed by the way I wrote so if my name's on it I typed the words now that doesn't mean I didn't

take input while I was typing but everywhere if I put my name on it I wrote it

um and I honestly don't know who contributed to the unsigned statement before I started posting the thing that

I was working on was the deliverable 1.2 the actual thing and the process for how

we were going to move forward from this and you know bringing the the feedback process and the play test process to the table to get the community involved as

soon as possible that was what I was working on uh for all this I I the the statement that came out on the Friday

um I read it around the same time you did

okay so essentially this was not communicated go ahead yeah go ahead live sorry uh I just wondered how did you

feel when you when you read that what did you think of it I was not pleased with what we had

posted um I you know this is this is one of the things that inspired me to take a personal uh to put myself into this by

name and take ownership of this because I that was not acceptable for me that's not us that's not who we should be

um and I felt like this this needed to you know be less of a committee thing and uh more of a more of a d d thing

um um well there were other aside from just that specific phrasing there were other

issues that folks had flagged up uh the biggest of which is that the leaked uh

version of the ogl that people saw was always intended to be a draft and that

Wizards of the Coast had always intended to ask for Community feedback can you speak to why if this was the

case that the leaked ogl included a place to actually sign it that it

included as I understand it mention of specific dates as to when things would go into effect dates that had already

passed by the time that the I think by around the time that Wizards even responded and uh not only that but why

if this was explicitly a draft why a simple like even if uh why it

could not have been released immediately a statement immediately saying uh this is just a draft what you are all seeing

is not at all representative of what we had planned uh we are currently working on it and maybe set a due date any sort

because that could have fit under the the banner of communication uh so just to reiterate

um why uh why was the ogl uh worded the way it was including having places to

sign in specific dates specified and why then if that is the case did Wizards the coast say nothing because I I personally

find that very difficult to believe uh given the apparent progress that had already been made to the ogl 1.2

so every document that isn't published is to some extent a draft right until

it's published then that's the final version so when I'm when we're making a book for example we have draft versions of the books that don't get published

because we're making changes and those are all drafts until they're published and with a legal document it looks every

bit like the final one because any version could be the final one but isn't until it's final and published one one

was never final was never published it did contain the things that it would need when it would eventually be

published such as dates which were changed as we continued edit the document and places to sign because

ultimately there would be a need for people to agree to it um and so those those things are all

present in a final document they are also president present in a draft because they draft if approved if

everybody likes it becomes the final and so that's I mean that's it's to me it's maybe I don't know it seems a

little bit um I like a weird thing to get hung up on because of how drafts work but I'm in

the book business so I see draft all the time so maybe that's why I see it that way um uh and what about the second part of

the question uh why there was in light of the fact that it was apparently a draft why was there no response

well I think that gets back to the conversation we were just having earlier about what was hanging up our responses

um the the immediate reaction the strength of the reaction uh caused people to be concerned about anything we

said be incredible or not we're adding fuel to the fire or making it worse and I think that caused some hesitation

um do you think that the hesitation paid off given what happened when it was

originally released in hindsight I would have much preferred to take a much more active communication

stance on that uh and to be much more responsive and to you know get the conversation going

um much sooner and much more um responsibly than we were and yeah you know hindsight 2020 uh at

the time as it was unfolding it was a combination of is is this as

bad as it's going to get is it going to get worse will we make it worse if we talk will we not we'll make it better if we talk

it was it was a tough spot um because we care so much about the

community and everybody who was being hurt by this and at the same time so we were like how do we make this better is

it better if we say something that's better if we don't say something let's just deliberate let's just give them the the new one that's not that doesn't have

all these things in it that they're worried about uh so which you know in hindsight is

maybe not the right thing would it be fair to say then uh that at

the very least there may have been too many uh well I guess you've already I guess the

better question is were there dissenting voices about the uh oh the ogl one point

uh I guess the 1.1 prior to the leaks uh which indicated that there were

um were those voices from within Wizards to the coast or without Wizards of the Coast or both

both for sure both um and in the in any large group of people in order to get something done

you have a vigorous debate and then at some point you reach a point of commitment as a group and if you know if

for example I still disagree at that point my job is to say okay I disagree and I'm committing because we need to

move forward and that doesn't mean I stopped disagreeing but it does mean that we are going to proceed and I will

do the best I can to deliver this thing that we've decided to deliver and I and I think the flaw there was that the

dissenting voices were not given enough of a microphone we're not given enough of a presence in the room uh we're not

given enough weight to change the decision but they were certainly present we certainly heard them we certainly had

a debate going on both from our internal and our external feedback and as I said we were already changing the document

when it leaked so the feedback was moving then it was moving the ball it was moving the needle and then the

document became published or public I should I should say it was never published um became public while we were still

moving it Forward based on that input input and that input was very strong from the folks who who voiced it

um you know there's people on my team whose opinion I respect very much who were quite against it uh and it you know

moving moving the opinion of large groups unfortunately is not a fast thing um and it just it took us a while to

move it and in the meantime uh it went public does that mean that the dissenting

voices were the minority in Wizards at the time so the majority of of everyone

was well we didn't we didn't we didn't pull everybody of course

um so I would say that uh the the each person had a different perspective so

there might be people who are mostly focused on protecting rip um and there might be people who are mostly focused on hey I came from a

third party Creator Community I'm going to go back to it when my job here is done I need to make sure that that's still a healthy Community this is bad

you can't do this and different you know so different people come at it from different perspectives hey it's my job I'm in legal I'm supposed to give us all

the tools we can we have as an organization to protect us okay so I'm going to give you the strongest language I can so everybody had their point of

view at the table that was legitimate and was coming from a good place uh and so your question was it a minority I

would say it wasn't loud enough in the room and that's what's changing is we're giving much more of a voice to

the folks on my team myself included who are closer to the community and would be able to catch this kind of thing in

future and have enough volume to prevent it and how are you uh enacting that like

how are you giving them a voice well it's a couple things first of all by moving everything into the Creative

Commons we've just taken this whole discussion off the table I mean that's a one-way door we can't unring that Bell so there's no there's

no taking back the SRD and the openness of d d it's out there it's done so this

literal example can never happen again because we can't we we didn't even

decide to do it with language we just did it mechanically like you don't have to take our word for it that's just how the license works

um and so this particular problem literally can't happen again um now should we in future be looking at

corporate strategies company strategies that would impact the d d Community now

folks like me and my and the leaders of my creative team are in are in the conversation

so you've essentially been given authority to be able to influence these decisions is what you're saying you and

your team have been getting I was greater Authority in order to influence these decisions I would say greater

respect um because Authority for each decision needs to rest with a different person depending on what kind of decision we're making uh that being said uh being heard

and being respected is important uh and I will say um to to her credit I know she's gotten

a lot of um you know bad uh Cynthia has gotten a lot of um you know negative opinion

about her but she listens and she does change based on information and she's one of the most empathetic c-suite

people I've ever worked with uh by a country mile so um I am confident that when she says she's going to listen

she's going to listen mm-hmm okay um before I move on to a topic that uh

you uh actually just started to touch on I did want to ask can you give specifics

on who was being met with beforehand uh before like uh because I'd put a pin

in that jumping back to the pin and pulling it out uh can you give specifics on who those meetings were taking like

who those meetings were with uh any of them um I don't have that list in front of me

of exactly who we were talking to but it you know the it's the the biggest creators out there I know that was one

of the criteria was like what's what's Their audience size you know uh I mean we we spoke to Piezo we spoke to kobold

we you know spoke to critical role I mean and each conversation was different it was because each Creator is different

each person's each each group's thing that they create is different and so it's not like everybody got the same

conversation because not everybody was in the same place or had the same questions uh so there were I mean but it

was like that it was like okay who are the ones that are the top Publishers out there who are who are have large audiences that they're serving because

those are the ones who are going to really have the best sense of what's right okay um all right well I want to touch on

what you mentioned when uh you were talking about how the you were acknowledging how the the Creative Commons now covers all of the SRD 5.1 uh

here's my question is it the intention of Wizards of the Coast to add one D and

D content to this SRD we are I mean one DND isn't finished

right now so I can't really tell you what all the content is yet because we haven't finished writing it uh but I will say the intention to add the

content yeah the intention is that um all of the new up rules updates that

we're doing um including the stuff we're publishing in 2024 this being called one DND right now uh all of that will remain the SRD

will be updated to remain compatible with all of that now exactly how that compatibility is maintained is something

that I'm going to leave with the Jeremy Crawford and Crawford and the rules designers maybe it's we put the exact rules language into the SRD maybe it's

we do some bridging language like for example the new rules update will refer to species not race well so the SRD

still uses race so we might put some language in there that says hey where you see the word race use the word species and you know that's what I mean

by bridging language just to connect the dots for how stuff works in SRD versus how to work in the rules update but

it'll be some combination of those things the one thing I can guarantee right now is it'll be 100 compatible anything you build with the SRD will

work with the new rules okay uh is there are there plans to potentially introduce

a new ogl that is specific to one DND I don't think so I don't see the value

in it if you know the I mean Creative Commons is such a great open license I think if uh you know at such time as we

decided to um put more stuff out into the uh out into the public space we'd do

it through probably Creative Commons I think you know the I'm no interest in getting into the Ojo business I'd rather

be in the D D business okay so there's uh just to be clear there's no plans for us one d d

essentially becoming like a closed system where it's like well uh what everything that was five uh fifth

edition and everything prior is now covered by that we're cutting that free y'all can have it and we're building our

own thing and this is our new Venture no no we yeah we don't even think of it as a different Edition we think of it as an

evolution of fifth edition um that's why we call it one d d instead of putting a number on it um we don't I mean people like to call

it six Edition they're gonna call it another Edition they might even call it 5.5 I don't know because it feels a little bit more like what happened as

three got evolved into 3.5 but really what we're doing is we think fifth edition is great and we think it

could be better we think it could play faster it could play Easier it could provide more room for role play so

there's stuff like that we want to do to improve it but we're not trying to replace it

okay um so at the beginning of this we talked about how the the oh the new ogl was

designed in order to try and combat like big corporations uh big media

corporations specifically or new various new technologies um and that this has been planned for a

while well obviously since the new ogl is no longer happening what plans does Wizards then have to try

and address those issues we're leaning hard on the community honestly um we looked at it and said all

right there's I mean there's some things that one can do through Creative Commons like we can say hey you can't you need

to pull our attribution you know so you can't like put d d the name d d on it or whatever so there's

some small things we can do that might discourage some Bad actors but really um what we're counting on especially for

things like the hateful content stuff we were worried about we're counting on the community um because you know it's uh demonstrated

it's been demonstrated time and time again not least of which just now that this is a strong and vocal and active

Community uh and so rather than counting on a legal document to give us personally the room to act we're going

to be counting a lot on the strength of the community and supporting the actions of the community to combat things that

try to come in and take over the space or try to scam people um you know through nfts or whatever I

feel pretty confident that this community is going to catch on to that and make noise and we would rather be

with you uh making that noise again something bad then uh than trying to put it in a legal document

okay um so I know that there were a number of concerns uh with the uh the ogi I think

even the ogl 1.2 that had been proposed that there were Provisions in there that

talked about uh potentially uh I guess shutting down a a project if

it does not align with Wizards values uh the concern by much of the community I

mean many of our some of our Show members as many many of our fans fit into uh numerous minority groups uh

there has been a fear raise that if hypothetically there was turnover at Wizards of the Coast and I say a heavily

conservative leadership took over uh and suddenly say Pro lgbtq Plus content is

now considered harmful and defensive uh is that a is is the kind of action that

was proposed in the ogl 1.2 still a possibility is that still something that Wizards is looking towards having that

sort of authority and if so what protections are being put in place to prevent something like that happening

that's a similar response to the what about outside actors and new technologies coming in and making a mess

um the community are the ones who tell us when we publish something hateful or racist so that we can take action on it

and we expect that they will tell other people the same thing and so we're going to count on that community and support

that community in in helping all content creators to keep the game ever more

inclusive ever more open ever more welcoming so we won't be doing it through legal language we'll be doing it by supporting the voices who are calling

out for improved inclusivity and improved openness we're working on a Content policy because people asked hey

what what do you even consider hateful so we feel like we should publish something that says what we consider hateful and something that is adaptable

and something that can grow with time as Society wakes up and opens its eyes and

that will only apply to us of course because we don't you know we're not we're we don't have a legal structure in

place to apply to anybody else but we feel like you should know what our standards are and we feel like you should be able to participate in helping

us improve our standards so we're working on a Content policy to open the doors on that sum but that those two

things together are how I'd answer your question we're counting on the community and we're going to show you where our heads at on all those

um I think counting on the community is is definitely you know all well and good you know feedback is great but is there

any kind of intent to you know reflect on these things before they are put out to the community so

that the community doesn't have to kind of be relied on um for this information are you going to

have maybe like Community leaders who can like take a look over things like for example you had

um the what was the the monkey race that was in the hadozi yeah yeah like you

know stuff like that is there going to be somebody there who can just like Point things out that may get kind of

like overlooked like without it getting to the community point and then everything blows up yeah yeah so for our

own for things that we publish um I mean we can't really exercise oversight over anybody else we just got

to keep an eye on our house um and so for the things that we publish we have a thorough inclusion review

process right now where we have uh external uh inclusion reviewers

um inclusivity reviewers multiple two or three usually look over every word that we publish give us a complete report on

the things that we need to to take action on we figure out what we're going to take action on WE advise some of the

things we're how we're taking action on their feedback and then we publish it and so we do have already

I would I say already as of last fall but going forward it is an established

policy now for everything we published and we're also going back and anything we reprint we're going through all our old content as we reprint it and putting

it through that same rigor so um you know when you see the the reprint of course estrad when it comes out we

have some things that we need to do to that to make it better and we're going to do it based on these outside experts

who've advised us on this uh so that's that's our approach internally um and then also in the content policy you see

coming forward we have some some ways for the community as well to to officially advise us of things so it's

it's both we do it before we even publish it get some experts you know and take it very seriously and I will say

the reports that I've seen in the action plans that I've seen for the things we're publishing are pretty open I am

not seeing much resistance to any of the feedback the team is uh happy to have

the feedback and excited to be able to do something to make the game better uh okay I I wanted to jump in then and

when asked when did uh d d start using cultural consultants for its projects

and then I guess my next question would be why were they not using it sooner

because I I'm I mean the indication even what you just said is that they didn't start until at least last fall or the

very least last year whereas other major Outlets including I think some of the

ones that you mentioned have been uh when you the people that uh d d was Consulting with about the ogl 1.1 were

have you been using and publicly openly recommending the use of cultural consultants and so forth for years uh

why the slow movement on that well we were using them it just wasn't thorough it wasn't that every word went

past a reviewer and now the difference is every word goes past a reviewer and

in fact every word goes past multiple outside reviewers uh so there were spot reviews done of things that we thought

might be problematic um for example the the vastani in cursorstrad have already been revised

heavily once with advice of of uh cultural Consultants so we have used them in the past

um what we were not doing is 100 percent with you know at least two Consultants

every word we publish that's the difference going from sum to all uh like with the hadozi for example

there was there wasn't suspicion based on the past of that particular race that there may be some red flags to be to pay

attention to there are a couple things that went on with that one um so short version is it

was not run by a cultural consultant of any kind um to catch that and that partic the

particular uh the there was a particular paragraph in there that really

um made the connection that to to past depictions that we really didn't intend to that

um got in there by kind of a uh and outside the normal flow thing a senior person who is very trusted wrote it and

very few eyes got on it before it got into the final draft and so that was so it's two it was two breakdowns in

process one we were not reviewing everything and so nobody had reviewed it and it even got in there outside the

normal process so we've corrected both of those things we have a much greater rigor on our basic processes and we've

also layered in multiple independent uh inclusivity reviewers on everything we publish

um uh it seems to me that uh we did uh an app I say this because we did an

episode actually about the previous version of the hadozi from like 3.5 Edition and uh even I have my dad knows

nothing about d d uh so I just with him I described to him the the general way

that the previous version had existed uh and as I kept going his face went more

and more from quizzical to uh deeply horrified and I guess in light of that

with how uh kind of undeniably the previous editions had the hadozi

situated is essentially a parallel or metaphor for like the American slave trade

it just seems like a big oversight to let one person then be responsible for

writing a significant portion because it's not like the backstory was long that was published in the new version to

be responsible for published for writing in a specific uh a significant portion of the new lore the new official lore

for the race and not having that checked over yeah uh that's correct that that was a

mistake it was taken very seriously and some internal actions were taken as a result we did take it extremely seriously uh the other thing is we we

have a d d has a long history it's got a long and deep lore that goes back to

some really troubling stuff uh and so we're in the a place where we want to

acknowledge and bring forward some of the cool Nostalgia but also fix the

broken stuff fix the stuff that was wrong about it and uh it's it's in that space it's very possible for somebody

meaning well to make what they think is a nostalgic callback that actually dredges up with that hook a whole big

wad of terrible stuff that we did not want in the in there in the first place uh so while I can understand how the

mistake was made that does not mean the mistake was forgiven and it's not me the mistake was not acted on

um so yeah we took it very seriously and uh um it's not something that can happen

again with the current structure uh we'll I guess uh speaking of Wizard's

internal structure uh there was I'm sure you're aware uh that the popular Tick

Tock and YouTube Creator d d shorts published a video uh very recently claiming to have verified Insider

communication from employees at Wizards of the Coast and among the most disturbing uh leaks were repeated

indications that Wizards of the Coast isn't a safe work environment for employees uh they've specifically named

Chris KO I hope I'm pronouncing his last name correctly as someone who routinely has uh quote outbursts and verbally

attacks employees I can actually I I wrote down the quote it says KO verbally attacked many individuals across the

company to my knowledge almost every person he attacked has now left the company since it was clear neither the

leadership nor HR were going to do anything about it uh which also follows on earlier statements and leaks from

past years concerning unsafe work environments and lack of diversity such as Orion blacks statements back in 2020

which Wizards in fact publicly apologized for uh what are you doing as

an executive to ensure that your employees of all different backgrounds have a safe work environment

so there's a number of things first of all uh just in my personal space on my own team

the place that where I have the most influence uh my Approach is always to take the phrase that I always give

people is I need good information not good news and what and that that is that's an important thing to State and

it's important thing to demonstrate it's important when someone brings me something that's a concern my first response is thank you I need that

information in order to make things better rather than getting defensive rather than you know shutting it down I

need the information please give me the information tell me the things so that I can do things about it and that approach

permeates throughout the team and so I think certainly not on the digital team which is Chris Ko's team so I can't

speak for my my actions on my team are not liable to make a huge impact on that team's work environment it's a you know

it's a big group and each team sort of has its own local culture and in my own local culture on on the on the dungeon

the dragons you know core Studio team where we make all the books and game and stuff uh it's always about being open I

have multiple conversations with the team I have an open lunch every week that people can just drop in and tell me

whatever they want and the more they see that that is actually true that there are no repercussions from it I've only

been in this job for a few months so I have to build a track record I have to create I can't just declare it to be

safe I have to demonstrate it to be safe and so I'm doing that and my intent is that over time people will go all right

he means what he says when I raise an issue he acts on it he doesn't shut me down he doesn't retaliate great and

that's I think the responsibility of every senior leader especially if we're going to grow as a society to keep that

door open especially to marginalized folks and in addition we have Anonymous feedback channels whereby people can can

raise issues if they don't feel safe doing so um but I I take this extremely

personally I have gotten in trouble at other workplaces for uh maybe going too far as a leader in going after these

things so it's um yeah it's not something that can be trivialized we cannot do our best work

as creators if we don't feel safe and we cannot do our best work as members of society if we can't address the hard

things um um I well you mentioned that uh there

are separate teams and each team essentially has their own individual culture uh that's fair but is there not

an overall system in place to prevent that kind of mistreatment from

continuing or give employees um reliable ways to have action taken

because the indication at least in the quote is that whatever systems may be in

place simply are not working yeah there are systems in place for that um now I've not having been in the loop

uh on exactly what was raised to whom and how that fed into the process that we have in place for addressing these

concerns I can't speak to exactly how that person's particular concerns were raised and uh not addressed or addressed

but I can say there is a system in place there are investigations that are conducted when um you know issues like

this issues of you know a hostile workplace and harassment and those things come up uh those those are always

confidential by their very nature uh and so I I am not allowed to know what's

going on with that but I can say the the processes exist and I have been party to some that have uh reached some pretty

significant conclusions and uh have resulted in real action so I do know that that feedback and the system that

handles it does result in real action uh I can't speak to what's going on what

the particular person's um own experience was but I can't say there is a system and I have seen it

work um so uh thinking about the lack of

diversity that we mentioned earlier one of the things that we couldn't wrap our

heads around when we were talking about the herdosi is the fact that there was nobody internally who would have picked

up on that kind of thing like the very fact that there has to be an external kind of audit kind of says that you know

maybe there should be some more diversity in the company as it is do you think that's something that you can

speak on like are there any plans to be more inclusive with your hiring process yeah we we're pretty aggressive actually

in in pursuing uh inclusivity in our hiring process and I'm happy to say that uh certainly in the last couple of years

of hiring uh We've made a difference um on the D D team in particular and part

of that honestly is that the d d audience has been growing and becoming more diverse which is great because I you know D D players and creators exist

on a spectrum right every player is a Creator we make a stuff up at the table that's the whole point of the game um and then you know hey then maybe I'm

a DM and I write a world and I don't want to published world and eventually I'm a big you know uh you know none of cobalt plus right I'm uh uh critical

role or whatever so everybody in our community is a Creator and when we hire people onto our team we hire from that

pool of creators and so as the pool of players becomes more diverse so too does the pool of creators become more diverse

and that makes it more and more possible for us to hire top quality creators who are also from diverse backgrounds um and

uh you know and and have all kinds of things to bring to the table I think in the in the case of the hadoops in particular again a big part of it was

that our internal process also wasn't followed so even the people on our team who would have seen it didn't see that

text they didn't get a chance to go hey that's a problem before it was live and so that was so we had an internal

breakdown of our existing process as well as needing to get some outside eyes on it

uh in terms of hiring diversity um this actually speaks to one uh one

thing that Orion black said in their statements which is that they believed that they were essentially A diversity

hire which look we're all here we're all in favor of diversity But ultimately I think what makes the difference in a

company like this is if you have minority people in positions of power and while I'm sure that there have been

numerous hirings of people from a variety of different minorities at least in the case of racial minorities

I've met a number of people who including yourself who are fairly high

up in D and D uh and I think every single one of them has been white and

also I think all of them have been CIS men not to say that everybody there is a CIS man but it seems to be consistently

that we have white CIS men still at the top of these groups can you identify any

specific positions of like significant power um because you've got you got I mean

even on the D D team you still got uh you've still got Jeremy Crawford uh you still got uh Mike Merles and so forth

what can you identify any specific uh positions that have like higher

ranking positions that have been filled by people of say racially diverse backgrounds uh I think if you look at

the the credits of our books um you'll see some lead designers there who are are uh not CIS men uh you will also see

a lot of primary authors on sources uh these are folks who are coming up

through the ranks and proving themselves and earning their respect not because of

who they are but because of how they are as professionals which is the best kind of respect right you know you don't want

to be respected because you're the diversity hire you want to be respected because you're awesome at your job and that's uh and that's happening more and

more um this you know look guys like me we're we're leaving uh the workforce to

be blunt and we're also not this is not the face of the hobby anymore I'm not the majority of this hobby anymore uh

and I I and so it's important to me that my team of creators look like my players

and have the lived experience that my players do and I think there's been mistakes made in years past where people

assumed that d d players were all you know white dudes in a basement

um which is which has been a faulty assumption for a lot of years and gets more and more false every day and so

it's in my viewpoint honestly guys like me you can't can't leave soon enough um for this Hobby and we owe you good

games we owe you good products and so we need to make sure that everybody working on it is real good at it and that means

not just hiring but also developing right when we bring people in who are good we need to empower them give them

more room to run give them guidance on what we learned when we were creating stuff so that they can create great

stuff too and then you know I always hire people smarter than me so that I can get out of their way that's my

Approach uh and so as as long as we stay on this trajectory yeah this is this is the face of d d

will literally change okay um I we're I know I see we're running

relatively low on time so I got two uh big questions that I wanted to get to uh

the first is that many people suspect that one DND is going to be uh strongly

it's gonna be at least with the release of One D there's going to be a very strong focus on digital platforms like

vtts that one d d could in could end up being kind of what many spec fourth

edition was originally supposed to be uh as I'm sure you know fourth edition was supposed to have a vtt that it came with

it that didn't end up happening and that caused you know further difficulties in terms of playing the game uh it's their

strong suspicions especially with the announcement of the vtt and the the clips that were shown or the images that

were shown in the in the announcement that uh one d d is going to be like a heavily online game and that Wizards

focus is Shifting more toward primarily producing online content in that uh I

think the phrase that was used in in D shorts videos that books would then be like collector items or like special

things that you could buy uh but that were not uh key to the experience and that everything else was going to be

digital in terms of physical books rather we're going to be like collector's items so our our goal is to give you more ways

to play so it's and not instead uh we're gonna keep making the game as we do

today uh and that's also why we love all the work that's being done by all the vtts out there uh we think that's great

it's been essential for people to be able to play that way and we think that's going to continue to be true we would also like to offer a cool looking

3D space if people want to play in that too but it's not ever meant to replace it's just meant to be additive here's

another way you could play if you like that here's another way you could play if you like that uh and you know I could certainly see if people were trying to

make forward-looking discussions they might say well what if everybody started playing that way we ever make books and then you know I could see somebody

saying from that well maybe then books would become Collectibles that's not the strategy though the strategy is to give

you all the choice and then we go where your interests lie we go where your choices lie I mean we're we're here to

make a game for the players and so what we want to do is put as many things on the table for you as we can and lean

into the things that you like best okay uh Liv did you have anything to jump in with before I go to the final

question um oh I think the final question deserves a lot of time so yeah let's let's jump

onto that okay uh finally how does uh how does d d in Wizards of the Coast in

uh plan on rebuilding trust with the community uh through actions I mean you you behave

your way out of a trust problem you don't talk your way out of it so I mean obviously we'll have conversations like this this is important and talking is

itself in action I'm not denying that or setting that aside and it's the actions that are going to count what do we do

and that's why we started with the strongest possible action we could which is all right here you go it's in

Creative Commons now um go to town uh no clear signal we could send about our

intentions here uh and uh as more concerns get raised we take action on them as well so Arc it is on us now to

be responsive and good actors in the space and that's so some of this some of

this our plans for the future is going to be like well we're going to be watching to see what you all need

um and acting on that uh you know we want to make a game that you all want to play and uh that includes making it an a

community and an environment where people feel happy playing where people aren't

um you know uh concerned about what's going to happen to their favorite Creator or their favorite stuff down the

road so uh yeah it's for us it's all about actions not words at this point

um and we intend to be active okay uh do you have I guess um if

there's a message that you could give to those who were whose trust was broken I know that there are many within the

community who have who no longer really feel comfortable playing the game because of they feel as though uh

Wizards of the Coast and d d kind of or at least the corporate figures in those organizations kind of showed their hand

on that there's not very much that the focus is ultimately on uh on profits and

not on the people and not on the fans and the creators who have helped boost the game uh to the heights that it has

been and the heights that has reached uh and make the game so special do you have

a message to those who feel uh betrayed essentially by what has happened with

this whole situation watch what I do not what I say and

decide for yourself if what we're doing is enough for you to trust us and either way play your game with your friends you

don't need to have us at the table if you don't want to you know your game is for you

um we'll make stuff for it and if you want it we'll be over here making it you can come get it um but honestly we should not be messing

up your game you should be playing your game you don't you don't honestly you

shouldn't need to trust Wizards of the Coast to play dungeon the dragons I I guess is what I'd really say uh so

we have work to do to build back that trust but I don't I would hate for a lack of trust in me

and our team to get in the way of you having fun with your friends because it's your friends didn't break

this you didn't break this very true uh well I guess there you have it uh

thank you very much Kyle uh for joining us in for answering these questions uh

yeah it's we I guess we will see how things go on we will continue I can I

can assure you we will continue to be watching uh your actions uh and and uh I

guess we will judge from there but thank you very much for what you said yeah I really appreciate the time thank you so much yeah thank you

okay so that was our uh interview with Kyle

um and now we're here to chat about um you know what we thought about what

went on yeah well uh I felt like Kyle had uh I could

but we said this just before starting to record this outro I think it's fair to say Kyle had for the most part all the

right answers and I'm doing quotes around right answers um I think that there were a lot of

cases where he he dodged having to give answers that

might have otherwise been uncomfortable so such as the questions about Chris Ko's Behavior where he's like he

essentially said I'm not on that team and if you notice he never mentioned him by name he only ever said to that

individual uh and so forth which I I think was in reference to the situation with Chris uh it seemed as though it was

very much like oh you know I'm just over here and all the teams are separate things to do with me and it's like

but if you you must you you must know this dude

must have a reputation yeah yeah um so yeah there was a few instances

like that where there was some obfuscation um but uh yeah we were told not to hold

back and I don't think we did I think that we asked every question that we meant to ask but um

I don't know I feel like that we yeah we just didn't get straight answers particularly yeah um which is a little

bit disappointing but what are you gonna do I guess yeah and I think we got some straight answers

I mean there were some things that it's like oh okay this is an unequivocal statement that you're making you're there are currently no plans for uh one

DND to become its own closed system there are no uh plans for one DND to have its own new ogl apparently uh there

are no like there it's all going into the old one okay there's no plans for basically any of the stuff that people

were freaking out about with ogl 1.1 and 1.2 okay that's a pretty clear stance that

he's taking that if in fact down the line we see is not true then you know we

will be able to say hey that was a lie yeah I would like to yeah yeah there were specifics uh as you said there were

some things where it's like okay I'm glad that we at least got him to say which uh some at least some of the

groups that they spoke to ahead of time yeah I wasn't expecting actual names but

I'm glad that you pushed on that because I don't think we would have gotten it otherwise um yeah it

it the the answers that were given were you know they all made sense but it just it

just it makes it's hard to believe that they weren't all thoroughly examined beforehand and these

and like every question that we asked was anticipated and you know they had an

answer set in place for each of them you know they wouldn't have done this if they didn't have that advice yeah

um yeah they yeah um they they absolutely and actually they had asked for the questions ahead

of time which we did not send them the questions ahead of time uh they said that this was specifically so that they

could uh I'm not gonna quote them uh but because I have the email in front of me but I believe they said it was so that

they could make sure that they had all the informations because if sometimes people are raising legal issues and so

forth and since he's not part of the legal team he can't really speak to that uh so

it as yeah it could that could be the case if we take them at their word then sure that was the reason why they were

asking it could also be because they were trying to uh be prepared for specific questions and know maybe the

tone of the interview so that they could be prepared um but they didn't even need that because

they definitely discussed everything that we offered to them yeah I I'm with

you live I remain unconvinced on a number of topics uh specific basically everything about the ogl 1.1 I'm like um

like okay look maybe there was in fact some work on a later I don't know on

later changes that wasn't I'd still it still to me does not make

sense that they could not have publicly said acknowledged but I don't really know it felt like uh in

for full transparency we only had an hour to speak with him we had a lot of different topics that we wanted to get

to and so we had to start making decisions about what we were we're going to push on what we weren't going to push

on that sort of thing like if it was and that became a thing where it's like well he's given an answer

look I'm not really sure what else to say except I don't believe you yeah no

it it just it just felt very I don't know artificial it made the team sound really

incompetent in a number there were a number of instances where his answer was basically like yeah we just didn't have

it together man like it but stated in a very uh a much more eloquent way

official roundabout way I agree no um yeah it just it just felt

yeah it felt placating in a way uh which

I mean yeah that was the goal yeah it was a damage control interview yeah um

we have not really talked much about uh our individual responses or our

responses a show um there's a there's a good chance that we will be talking more about our

responses to show down the line but uh I feel comfortable to at least say where

I'm coming from do you want me to say first liver do you want to say where you're coming from or what we've talked about at the show okay

um essentially in my opinion what uh the ogr that we have and had and

continue to have is like such a unique thing for a large corporation to have in

place that I was amazed that it even existed and uh in my opinion uh

ultimately they were we had a great thing we continue to have a great thing thankfully but they were within their

rights to change it sure because it's their thing yeah but the way in which

they were going about changing it the the fact that the leaked document would

have given a week for creators to sign and agree to it uh the fact that

I still don't buy that it was a draft I still don't

it's just yeah to me that's like the fact that it look the fact that they've

been working on it for years and the fact that it was posted uh or that they had approached people with it indicates

to me that if there were changes to be made they were probably going to be pretty minor yeah because why why would

they have not gone straight to the community in a case like that it just doesn't make sense

no he doesn't sorry yeah you can yeah and as such

um I have nothing against the game of d d uh I generally believe I get the

impression at least that Chris may have been telling the truth not Chris uh that Kyle may have been telling the truth uh

when he was talking about his love for the game and so forth I I don't I

obviously can't know for sure but it seems that he does genuinely love the game of d d and does overall seem to

have positive um intentions towards at least uh the game

um but I my my trust in Wizards of the Coast and d d has an organization is

certainly shaken and so I'm not I'm still playing d d like in

private games I don't necessarily have a problem with that I commend anybody who is switching

um I personally feel uh I can say uh that one thing that is unequivocal two

things is number one my trust in this system is broken uh in their corporation uh they have I to me they have still

shown their hand and now they are trying to fix that but to me it's still going to take a lot of effort and work to

build back that trust I'm gonna need to see a lot more than even just an interview if the things he's saying in the interview are carried through the

attitude that he brought forth in the interview is actually followed then I'm like great but that's gonna be that's gonna need to be months of activity or

years of activity for me to really yeah that as you said it remains to be seen that is one thing the other thing is

this it is not healthy for the ttrpg landscape to have one uh one giant game

controlling so much of the space and I it's it I mean just by how big a deal

this was does and how many creators were affected by this and it wasn't just oh D

and D makes up a section of my sales for a lot of these people it's like the main thing or the only thing that they do and

even on our show it's almost the only thing that we play and so that's that tells me that it is time to start

boosting uh an even more proactive role in trying to boost other games and other creators

in the space and so my intention is going forward for uh future actual plays

to feature D less often um

exactly and we already have at least one uh I think two two recordings scheduled

that will explicitly help promote other ttrpgs uh there are a couple of of

actual play things that we have already recorded or at least partially recorded that use D and D that happened prior to

the ogl nonsense we're gonna keep those like if it's already done recording we're not going to re-record it and if

it's already partially recorded we're not going to force the cast to learn a new system and then re-record the whole

Adventure uh so that stuff will stay with d d but there's a good chance that

a lot of other games and planned series that we had for this year as well as uh more one shots that we plan uh we'll be

focusing on things other than BNB down the line absolutely um yeah no I I mean on dice breakup uh

which is uh the channel I do in my day job um we've discussed like the idea of like

maybe we like possibly would to lean more into d d just like kind of overall but then it was always like a resounding

no because um like it just it just goes to show that you

can't rely on one system you really can't um and there are so many so many out

there that you know people really need to pay more attention to um but yeah everything you said Jeremy I

completely agree with um it's yeah it this whole thing has been a

bit of a fiasco but at least it was a wake-up call so yeah you know yeah

that's that's good and I will say uh we have had talks about the degree to which the show will be focusing on DND content

going forward even aside from actual play uh but in terms of discussion uh I feel comfortable to publicly say that

I'm in favor of taking less of a focused

role we'll see what ends up happening this is not me saying this is a decision this is me letting you know uh just as a

Creator I guess I am in favor of not I mean we'll probably finish the class

deep I'm in favor of that but we'll see about the rest for me yeah you have one

class left that's why it's just a sorcerer one it's not the sorcerer's

fault um but yeah like I got ttrpg it's coming out the Wazoo like you know we

can we can learn other systems it's great it'll be it'll be fun it's going to be a brand new chapter for 3bh I'm

very excited about it so yeah um with that I guess let us know what you think about this and let us know

what your thoughts are out there in in our Discord on Twitter and patreon let us know because look we don't know

everything uh that's partly why it's taking us so long to respond because we were there's a lot of waiting to see

when it first was first broke I was like is it as bad as people are saying I was waiting to hear from like lawyers and

hear more details about it and you know as we heard more leaks and lawyers came to weigh in a lot of times the lawyers

didn't even agree with each other or the lawyers would miss aspects that were specific to D and D like where they're

like well you can't you can't uh you can't copyright rule systems so what was the ogl originally doing and then people

will come in who actually write stuff and they're like well actually the the language used is something you can

copyright and that is very big to the deed like the whole idea the stat block and specifics of how things are written

the style is something you can and that is a big thing that was that people had access to that sort of thing

um so yeah for me I tend to try and be cautious because I know that jumping in

and just guns are blazing on the wrong side can sometimes do a lot more harm

than good the [ __ ] yeah um also with pointing out that um the questions that we asked uh to Kyle in

this interview a lot of them were prompted by uh patrons and uh Discord

members so it's worth checking those out because we do go to our community you

know as as a source uh very often so yeah if you're interested in that just uh check check them out I'm sure

there'll be links around yeah and in fact yeah not only that there were instances where multiple people had

asked versions of the same question so I just sort of collapsed them into one and in some cases I would literally put in

parentheses this these people specifically had wanted to know about this thing or this many people upvoted

this particular question and that helped to boost in some cases which questions were being asked uh we had our own

questions as well obviously but yeah um with that is there anything else we need to touch on I think you've done a

lot I can Jeremy we should do plugs shouldn't we bugs we can plug yeah yeah live you got something to plug yeah I'll

plug myself that's always sounds so weird um

it's a treat for me um I'm at the stock Magic on Twitter and

I'm Olivia does stockmagic on most other things I'm also on YouTube now I'm hopefully releasing a new video tonight

we'll see maybe um so yeah go ahead and subscribe if you'd like but also subscribe to three

back halflings on YouTube and you can also find me on forward slash dicebreaker if you want more ttrpg

stuff that's not just D and D that's all right there yeah yeah uh and uh you can

follow me on Twitter at Jeremy cobb1 that's Cobb with two B's in the number

one uh but you can also follow follow me because I've reached the threshold I'm

going to look up my username on air I've reached 150 followers yeah can I tell you what it is because I know what it is

please do yeah it is the cob Meister oh okay follow me at the cob Meister on

Instagram I'm going to be posting something possibly today as of this recording or just very soon uh thank you

Liv uh the cob Meister I mean I've been uh looking at it for just like oh there he is

see you um yeah no I I've double checked it is correct yes yes uh and even more

importantly than following me on the cob Meister uh there is a new show it's either coming out this week or next week

uh I'm doing with Andrew Coons of the first watch friend of the show uh he has been on three black halflings I know

we've done a couple of Kickbacks with him that I don't think have been released yet uh and I think we also did

a shire folk Spotlight with him that I think has been released already um go check out the quantum reactor it

is a sci-fi movie review show uh we're we've recorded I think three episodes so far we talk about sunshine the 2007

movie we talk about everything everywhere all at once uh the movie came out last year 2022 Masterpiece uh we

also talk about Moon which is 2009 film a very very good movie all three of

those I would say each episode gets better as we solidify our style uh but

yeah go check it out go follow us you can follow us on uh Twitter at Q reactor

show and I think we will also be posting to YouTube but I I think actually no I

think on YouTube we are also Q reactor show so go check that out yeah uh you can't do it yeah go go support go

support and we also I always have a Discord I don't know where the link to that's going to be but keep stay tuned

stay tuned for that um yeah with that uh go follow the show

on patreon uh specifically three black halflings now uh TV halflings if you want to uh help and get

behind the scenes help support the show get behind the scenes stuff get Kickbacks uh like the one that Liv and I

just recorded last week which I thought was a great conversation that we had yeah we had a fun time we just had a nice chat and we really enjoyed it so if

you want to be a part of that you go ahead and take a listen yeah um follow us on Twitter Instagram and

Facebook at three this is number three black halflings and I think that's just

about it we will see you all next time so long Shire folk so

that was a headgam podcast
Last edited:


Haven’t gone through the whole thing yet, but when he is saying ‘OGL 1.1 was a terrible way to approach the goals we had in mind, which is why it was easy for us to abandon it’, then I do wonder why it looked the way it did… and if you really are concerned about the Disney’s and Meta’s of the world, then the fee kicking in at 750k revenue feels awfully low




I crit!
@5:30, he says that the royalties were supposed to be a disincentive to keep major companies (e.g. Meta or Disney) from making monetized content via the OGL v1.0a.

EDIT: Reworded the above for clarity.
We almost know what or who they are afraid of.

Remove ads

Remove ads