D&D General Ray Winninger on 5e’s success, product cadence, the OGL, and more.

[AlViking]

It's really disheartening that over 15 years later and we're still having the same tired arguments about 4E. And that some of it is coming from people who worked at WOTC and should know better.

If someone from wotc says that 4's direction was influenced by MMOs I tend to believe them. Even if they weren't on the initial design team they likely had in person conversations with some of the original designers. The influence of MMOs is neither good nor bad because DnD has always stolen ideas and concepts from other games and vice versa. If people refer to WOW it's just because it's the most recognizable MMO out there.

 

[AlViking]

I'll concede that MMOs are way more well-known and popular than tactics RPGs and that the playtesters maybe didn't have the vocabulary to describe what they meant, especially if the higher ups were demanding 4E to be a tabletop MMO and advertising it as such to playtesters despite it emphatically not actually being that.



5E pretends to not require a grid, but it sure isn't built around it with all the mechanics that require discrete areas of effect represented in terms of feet. I've played in multiple games where the DM tried to use Theater of the Mind only to switch to maps when combat was slowed to a crawl by players constantly asking who was in their AoE or aura, if an enemy had triggered their sentinel feet, if an ally was close enough to benefit from a ranged buff reaction, etc.

For what it's worth we started using tokens and measuring distances with a ruler on an old chalk board in OD&D because we didn't like theater of the mind. I think we used the tokens from an old Monopoly board for our characters and buttons for the monsters but it's been a long time.

 

[payn]

5E pretends to not require a grid, but it sure isn't built around it with all the mechanics that require discrete areas of effect represented in terms of feet. I've played in multiple games where the DM tried to use Theater of the Mind only to switch to maps when combat was slowed to a crawl by players constantly asking who was in their AoE or aura, if an enemy had triggered their sentinel feet, if an ally was close enough to benefit from a ranged buff reaction, etc.

Tight a lot of the combat and magic makes totm very difficult. I got totm in Traveller and it donned on me how simpler combat is to make that effective.

 

[Hexmage-EN]

Here's an example from the tactical RPG The Banner Saga showcasing positioning and forced movement, staples of 4E combat.



In contrast, here's an example of WoW combat:



4E combat greatly resembles the former more than the latter.

EDIT: I'm not opposed to people saying 4E combat is video gamey. That's fine, it does resemble many tactical RPG video games' combat. It's the claims that it resembles MMO combat that I take issue with.

 

[Tigris]

If someone from wotc says that 4's direction was influenced by MMOs I tend to believe them. Even if they weren't on the initial design team they likely had in person conversations with some of the original designers. The influence of MMOs is neither good nor bad because DnD has always stolen ideas and concepts from other games and vice versa. If people refer to WOW it's just because it's the most recognizable MMO out there.

The thing is however, that 2 of the 3 people who WERE on the initial design team did say just last year that this was NOT the case: 1 of these people still working for WotC unlike this person who was let go.

Also it is quite known that this WotC person did NOT like 4E design. And was not on the best terms with the original 4E lead designer. It is also known that this ex WotC employee was THE most hated 4E designer by the 4e fans.


And it is also known that this WotC employee used 4E being not as successfull, to become the 5E lead.

 

[Chaltab]

If someone from wotc says that 4's direction was influenced by MMOs I tend to believe them. Even if they weren't on the initial design team they likely had in person conversations with some of the original designers. The influence of MMOs is neither good nor bad because DnD has always stolen ideas and concepts from other games and vice versa. If people refer to WOW it's just because it's the most recognizable MMO out there.

There's a difference between saying that a game was influenced by other games and the most common way this line gets repeated "4E was just WOW on paper"--which is inevitably a pejorative statement spread by people who probably haven't even played it. It's not like 4E actually plays anything like an MMO.

My take on 4E when I started playing it in 2010 was that it reminded me of Dragon Age, Final Fantasy Tactics, and Fire Emblem.

WOW, in my experience, is a chaotic mess where nobody works together and everyone wants to sell you gold farmed on foreign servers.

 

[mamba]

5E pretends to not require a grid, but it sure isn't built around it with all the mechanics that require discrete areas of effect represented in terms of feet. I've played in multiple games where the DM tried to use Theater of the Mind only to switch to maps when combat was slowed to a crawl by players constantly asking who was in their AoE or aura, if an enemy had triggered their sentinel feet, if an ally was close enough to benefit from a ranged buff reaction, etc.

I agree, I wish the grid were less important, I prefer the way 13A handles it

 

[Micah Sweet]

Maybe? We played it for 4 years using minis in basically the same way we used them in 1e 20 years prior. We also played an epic (30th level) adventure in two 6 our sessions while riding in a minivan. Just because the game gave you the structure to play with minis and a grid doesn't me they were necessary or prevented you, in any way, from playing without them.

I meant literally off-book. The game assumed and heavily supported maps and minis.

 

[Scribe]

While I agree, there is a difference . . . there is so much unnecessary hostility in this thread, and the other 4E threads that have popped up recently.

And after how long? Senseless.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Is there a version of D&D where that wasn't true?

Pre-3e did not try to force the issue like the WotC editions have from time to time.