[L&L] Balancing the Wizards in D&D

[steeldragons]

Better to play a videogame than get turned into a Sage NPC at dawn because you used your two spells for the day on the wandering monster that came upon your camp. After that, you get the joy of being nothing more than a walking encyclopedia for the rest of the day because you don't actually have any more magic.

Magic must actually be used if you want to be considered a magic-user.

If you are foolish enough to blow your only two spells for the day on the first encounter and then want to "boohoo I'm outta magic"...that's YOUR fault, not the systems.

As for "better to play a videogame than get turned into a Sage NPC", says you, is what I sez to that! Again, what your character does (with or without their spells) is on YOU, your imagination and your role playing...or apparent lack thereof.

If you'd rather play a videogame, by all means go do so...don't muck about in my RPG because you want more "pew pew."

 

[DEFCON 1]

Have to strongly oppose making D&D more like a video game in the name of giving people stuff to do at all times. The article was fine but this is an innovation I strongly dislike.

If you're doing 1d4+1 damage a round and it's fluffed as a "magic missile" instead of a "crossbow bolt", and you consider that "playing a videogame"... then I'd wonder what video games you were playing.

 

[avin]

It seems that a lot of people (caster players?) think quadratic wizards vs linear fighters is not an issue.

I like what's proposed on this article. Where do I sign?

As for Haste aging, that solves nothing on a short campaign or one shot game.

 

[DEFCON 1]

If you are foolish enough to blow your only two spells for the day on the first encounter and then want to "boohoo I'm outta magic"...that's YOUR fault, not the systems.

I'd say that only having two spells for an entire day but somehow still being considered a "magic-user", IS a fault of the system.

Heck... I type a couple posts here on ENWorld every day, but I don't consider myself a writer. And making myself lunch in morning doesn't mean I get to call myself a chef either.

If you're a magic-user... I don't think it's asking too much that you actually get to USE magic throughout the day. Even if the magic is nothing but the Prestidigitation spell over and over. At least that's something. Cantrips are cantrips. Why a wizard should only cast a single Light spell once in an entire day is something I just won't ever understand.

 

[Andor]

Have to strongly oppose making D&D more like a video game in the name of giving people stuff to do at all times. The article was fine but this is an innovation I strongly dislike.

Since the problem they are addressing is wizards have traditionally been too powerful I dont really see the use of giving them at will functions. Part of the balancing of wizards is they run out of resources eventually.

Nah. Part of the balancing of wizards has always been that they switch resources eventually.

A wizard who is out of vancian spells and pulls out his crossbow is mechanically identical to a wizard who is out of vancian spells and switches to his at-will cantrip "Ice Dagger" which, by coincidence, has the same damage and to hit roll as a crossbow.

In my experience "Out of spells" usually meant pulling out a crossbow, or in the old days a wand of magic missiles. You might as well build it into the class for those who want the feeling of wizards who always have some magic at their fingertips.

 

[eamon]

The idea that a wizard must always have a ZAP button for infinite damage is very videogamey. Magic must have a cost or it will soon become very mundane.

This isn't anything new. Magic has always been very common in D&D.

I can't remember when (for instance) magic missile has been terribly awe-inspiring. Certainly good against some foes in some circumstances, but also "mundane" in the sense you're using the word: common, not unusual.

 

[Lwaxy]

Heck... I type a couple posts here on ENWorld every day, but I don't consider myself a writer. And making myself lunch in morning doesn't mean I get to call myself a chef either.

Exactly. In that, the magic systems have always failed.

Yeah, a MU should run out of resources eventually, but I view it the same as a fighter getting tired vs running out of ammo. You can only stock up on so many arrows or throwing knives but at least you can chose to stock them. It needs to stay the same for the magic types.

 

[Mattachine]

Note: Cantrips (and orisons) were added to AD&D in the 80s (through Dragon Magazine) to offset the dissatisfaction with low level wizards running out of spells.

It is an old idea that many folks seem to forget.

Back in 1e, Unearthed Arcana, a caster got one cantrip per level per day.

House rules, rules variants in Dragon, and new classes have been around for 30 years simply to get around the standard casting limit, particularly at low level.

The design team has to account for this.

 

[GM Dave]

Have to strongly oppose making D&D more like a video game in the name of giving people stuff to do at all times. The article was fine but this is an innovation I strongly dislike.

Since the problem they are addressing is wizards have traditionally been too powerful I don't really see the use of giving them at will functions. Part of the balancing of wizards is they run out of resources eventually.

This is the standard of PF for wizards and at-will cantrips have rarely been a concern.

Let's look at the damage of 0-level spells. 1d3 point of damage! A thrown dagger often hits harder and has more range.

PF even gives extra basic attack spell or actions that can be used a number of days (usually 3+ related bonus). These are usually 1d6+ 1/2 levels.

By the time players reach 2nd and 3rd level spells, these spells are all but forgotten.

You know the most dangerous at-will cantrip spell in PF is? Create Water. It is dangerous because you get to create 2 gal of water per level every round. At level 1 you are a faucet tap and by level 5 you are a full on hose able to fill a standard 10 gal fish tank in 6 sec. If you were filling your car at this rate then you'd usually have filled the tank within 2 rounds (a true engineer would be able to get an engine to work with this level of production of water and with a bit of pressuring to have a 'firearm').

When we converted PF to play Dark Sun, we had to remove the Create Water spell from the 0 level cantrip list and change the volume of production of water.

Pew Pew Pew?

The fighter pulls out his two-handed sword and lays one hack and complains that they can't wait all day to get through the door.

 

[Melkor]

Something I posted over on the Wizard's website:

Instead of weakening all spells across the board, couldn't some spells include notes for how a Dungeon Master could offset the effects, so that the DM controls the game instead of having rules that limit the game?

For example, for the Iron Golem Grease thing - couldn't the DM say the floor was covered in sand, or a grated drain, so that the effect only lasted a turn or two?

That way, the Wizard can still shine, but the encounter doesn't have to be a complete wash.

Creative DM solutions can solve a lot of these problems without relying on the rules to limit them.