LA house rule idea

[Overkill_Engine]

Help me break/refine a LA house rule idea I have-

Trade in LA +X for X Racial Hit Die. Subtract 2 from the highest ability score for each Racial Hit Die gained this way. If Con is tied for highest score with any other ability, subtract 2 from it first. Do not give ability score increases for Racial HD gained in this way. Do not change base creature size for Racial Hit Dice gained in this way.

Examples of this rule in effect:


Unmodifed LA rules

Lizardfolk characters possess the following racial traits.
*+2 Strength, +2 Constitution, –2 Intelligence.
*Medium size.
*A lizardfolk’s base land speed is 30 feet.
*Racial Hit Dice: A lizardfolk begins with two levels of humanoid, which provide 2d8 Hit Dice, a base attack bonus of +1, and base saving throw bonuses of Fort +0, Ref +3, and Will +0.
*Racial Skills: A lizardfolk’s humanoid levels give it skill points equal to 5 x (2 + Int modifier, minimum 1). Its class skills are Balance, Jump, and Swim. Lizardfolk have a +4 racial bonus on Balance, Jump, and Swim checks.
*Racial Feats: A lizardfolk’s humanoid levels give it one feat.
*Weapon and Armor Proficiency: A lizardfolk is automatically proficient with simple weapons and shields.
*+5 natural armor bonus.
*Natural Weapons: 2 claws (1d4) and bite (1d4).
*Special Qualities (see above): Hold breath.
*Automatic Languages: Common, Draconic. Bonus Languages: Aquan, Goblin, Gnoll, Orc.
*Favored Class: Druid.
*Level adjustment +1.

Modified LA rules:

Lizardfolk characters possess the following racial traits.
*+2 Strength, –2 Intelligence.
*Medium size.
*A lizardfolk’s base land speed is 30 feet.
*Racial Hit Dice: A lizardfolk begins with three levels of humanoid, which provide 3d8 Hit Dice, a base attack bonus of +2, and base saving throw bonuses of Fort +1, Ref +3, and Will +1.
*Racial Skills: A lizardfolk’s humanoid levels give it skill points equal to 6 x (2 + Int modifier, minimum 1). Its class skills are Balance, Jump, and Swim. Lizardfolk have a +4 racial bonus on Balance, Jump, and Swim checks.
*Racial Feats: A lizardfolk’s humanoid levels give it two feats.
*Weapon and Armor Proficiency: A lizardfolk is automatically proficient with simple weapons and shields.
*+5 natural armor bonus.
*Natural Weapons: 2 claws (1d4) and bite (1d4).
*Special Qualities (see above): Hold breath.
*Automatic Languages: Common, Draconic. Bonus Languages: Aquan, Goblin, Gnoll, Orc.
*Favored Class: Druid.

Unmodifed LA rules:

Gargoyle characters possess the following racial traits.
*+4 Strength, +4 Dexterity, +8 Constitution, –4 Intelligence, –4 Charisma.
*Medium size.
*A gargoyle’s base land speed is 40 feet. It also has a fly speed of 60 feet (average).
*Darkvision out to 60 feet.
*Racial Hit Dice: A gargoyle begins with four levels of monstrous humanoid, which provide 4d8 Hit Dice, a base attack bonus of +4, and base saving throw bonuses of Fort +1, Ref +4, and Will +4.
*Racial Skills: A gargoyle’s monstrous humanoid levels give it skill points equal to 7 x (2 + Int modifier). Its class skills are Hide, Listen, and Spot. A gargoyle has a +2 racial bonus on Hide, Listen, and Spot checks, and an additional +8 bonus on Hide checks when it is concealed against a background of stone.
*Racial Feats: A gargoyle’s monstrous humanoid levels give it two feats.
*+4 natural armor bonus.
*Special Qualities (see above): Damage reduction 10/magic, freeze.
*Automatic Languages: Common. Bonus Languages: Auran, Dwarven, Elven, Gnome, Halfling, Giant, Terran.
*Favored Class: Fighter.
*Level adjustment +5.

Modified LA rules:

Gargoyle characters possess the following racial traits.
*+2 Strength, +2 Dexterity, +2 Constitution, –4 Intelligence, –4 Charisma.
*Medium size.
*A gargoyle’s base land speed is 40 feet. It also has a fly speed of 60 feet (average).
*Darkvision out to 60 feet.
*Racial Hit Dice: A gargoyle begins with nine levels of monstrous humanoid, which provide 9d8 Hit Dice, a base attack bonus of +9, and base saving throw bonuses of Fort +3, Ref +6, and Will +6.
*Racial Skills: A gargoyle’s monstrous humanoid levels give it skill points equal to 12 x (2 + Int modifier). Its class skills are Hide, Listen, and Spot. A gargoyle has a +2 racial bonus on Hide, Listen, and Spot checks, and an additional +8 bonus on Hide checks when it is concealed against a background of stone.
*Racial Feats: A gargoyle’s monstrous humanoid levels give it four feats.
*+4 natural armor bonus.
*Special Qualities (see above): Damage reduction 10/magic, freeze.
*Automatic Languages: Common. Bonus Languages: Auran, Dwarven, Elven, Gnome, Halfling, Giant, Terran.
*Favored Class: Fighter.


This seems to address a dislike I have for high LA characters having really high ability mods but crap for actual HP/BAB/saves. Now, the question is, is a flat -2 to a stat a fair trade for a racial HD, or should it scale according to the HD? Any additional limiters that should be in place?

 

[Notmousse]

Given high enough LA you may end up with characters that have nothing but ability score penalties. The gargoyle is only LA 5, but by the time you're done with him he's got less attribute bonuses than penalties!

Then you've got templates like Vampire that would screw characters as much as help them when their Con goes to -, and they get a whopping +2 (likely to Cha) out of it. Then there's the fact that they can no longer gain *any* XP from things their group would normally fight, and merely a fraction of standard XP for the group's new APL.

Me, I'd stick with the normal LA rules.

 

[CRGreathouse]

Then there's the fact that they can no longer gain *any* XP from things their group would normally fight, and merely a fraction of standard XP for the group's new APL.

Me, I'd stick with the normal LA rules.

Huh? It seems that O_E's rules end up with the same ECL (and as such XP) as the standard system. The character will just have lower stats in exchange for higher HD.

 

[Overkill_Engine]

Huh? It seems that O_E's rules end up with the same ECL (and as such XP) as the standard system. The character will just have lower stats in exchange for higher HD.

Yup. Lessened stats in exchange for HD, BAB, Base saves, and skill points. Keep in mind any special abilities that are HD based are strengthened under this system too.

 

[Notmousse]

You forget that this negates some crucial traits for certain LA monsters which rely on their improved attributes instead of HD based powers. Any monster with say Power Attack with be nerfed without their Strength. HD are nice for several things, but building stats is not one of them.

What you have is something that will buff creatures that use primarily HD based powers, and nerf any that does not.

Doing this will change the effective CR of monsters (up and down depending on it's traits), and certainly change what ECL a creature would warrent.

Take the Vampire I mentioned previously, odds of actually being able to use Dodge diminish under this rule (and the effect of Combat Reflexes is reduced as well). -2 to AC and Dex based skills, -3 to damage and Str based skills, -1 to all knowledge skills, -1 to a host of other skills (all Int, Wis, Cha based skills). As for benefits, I hope you were a spellslinger in life because your only good save for 8 HD is Will, and you're immune to many if not most Will Saves already.

The typed HD are perhaps the biggest problem in and of themselves. Some types are ok, Outsider and Dragon pretty much rock, but the rest are complete wastes of a level (Animal especially, few skill points on top of mandated Int penalties, brilliant!).

 

[Overkill_Engine]

You forget that this negates some crucial traits for certain LA monsters which rely on their improved attributes instead of HD based powers. Any monster with say Power Attack with be nerfed without their Strength. HD are nice for several things, but building stats is not one of them.

What you have is something that will buff creatures that use primarily HD based powers, and nerf any that does not.

Doing this will change the effective CR of monsters (up and down depending on it's traits), and certainly change what ECL a creature would warrent.

Take the Vampire I mentioned previously, odds of actually being able to use Dodge diminish under this rule (and the effect of Combat Reflexes is reduced as well). -2 to AC and Dex based skills, -3 to damage and Str based skills, -1 to all knowledge skills, -1 to a host of other skills (all Int, Wis, Cha based skills). As for benefits, I hope you were a spellslinger in life because your only good save for 8 HD is Will, and you're immune to many if not most Will Saves already.

The typed HD are perhaps the biggest problem in and of themselves. Some types are ok, Outsider and Dragon pretty much rock, but the rest are complete wastes of a level (Animal especially, few skill points on top of mandated Int penalties, brilliant!).

1) Power attack is limited by BAB. Adding HD increases BAB.
2) Dodge is unaffected. It's a +1 AC vs 1 target. All one has to do when rolling up a character is make sure one's Dex is 13+. Even then, many monsters and PC classes give out feats that one may use even if pre-reqs are not satisfied.
3) Combat Reflexes is affected, granted- you get few potential AoO's if Dex was a stat that got lowered. But you also get more potential AoO's by virtue of not dying due to lack of HD (and thus HP).
4) Yes, you lose some stat boni to associated skills. You also gain back skill points one can spend wherever one desires. Usually a net gain if one does not have a fairly large Int penalty. Choosing to gimp ones character by leaving the Int low at character creation is a fault of the player, not the system.
5) Saves- This system improves the base saves you get. You'd get +6 to base Will saves at the cost of at most the +1 mod from Wisdom if you chose to decrease that stat. Even with a crappy template like Vampire, you still end up with positive ability adjustments. Granted, the Undead HD benefits aren't the best, but it's better than 8 empty levels of no BAB/HP/Skill/saves.
6) Agreed on not all HD being equal- I would never suggest this for something like Animal HD- which are usually non playable due to Int requirements for PC's. Anything that would make something with Animal HD playable would transform them in to a Magical Beast most likely anyways, which is massively better.

 

[Notmousse]

1/2) I'll rephrase, if you don't have the required Str, or Dex the feats simply don't work, while you have technically them they've been nerfed to uselessness.

3) Those HP will come in handy when all those AoOs you're denied thanks to not having enough Dex for Combat Reflexes.

4) The whole point of LA instead of HD is to cover the fact that their powers are *beyond* their HD. The enfire point of LA is that these powers (special attacks, special qualities, ability bumps, and so forth) aren't just able to be squeezed into the appropriate amount of HD for the creature. No matter how many HD you get under your system it'll never get those 3 damage per hit back. Furthermore under normal leveling rules you'd only get 1 ability bump per four levels, while your system costs them 2 ability bumps per level.

5) Saves are completely dependant upon the base type of the source of the LA, which can be *very* disadvantagous to a character, especially when entering epic territory where all saves are effectively reduced to poor saves. Rogue 12 Vampire suddenly has a poor Rex save progression from here on out thanks to your system, while normally a Rogue 12 Vampire can continue improving their much needed Ref saves.

6) Last I checked there were no Int requirements for PCs, only for Humanoids and oddly enough Animals. The point remains, this does not apply equally across all levels. Lord help someone with Ooze HD thanks to their LA.

 

[Overkill_Engine]

1/2) I'll rephrase, if you don't have the required Str, or Dex the feats simply don't work, while you have technically them they've been nerfed to uselessness.

You do have a point- If one takes a feat that one no longer satifies the pre-req for, it cannot be used. Guess the PC better reselect feats they qualify for. I'll make that a specification of the houserule- PC's must reselect feats if the stat trade-in makes them ineligible for feats.

3) Those HP will come in handy when all those AoOs you're denied thanks to not having enough Dex for Combat Reflexes.

Dex 13 is not hard to achieve even under a limited point buy for base stats before racial mods. The extra durability and base saves makes up for the stat loss easily. And one could just pick another feat.

4) The whole point of LA instead of HD is to cover the fact that their powers are *beyond* their HD. The enfire point of LA is that these powers (special attacks, special qualities, ability bumps, and so forth) aren't just able to be squeezed into the appropriate amount of HD for the creature. No matter how many HD you get under your system it'll never get those 3 damage per hit back. Furthermore under normal leveling rules you'd only get 1 ability bump per four levels, while your system costs them 2 ability bumps per level.

Yes, that is certainly the point of the LA- I feel there may be a better way that doesnt leave a PC/villain with extremely anemic HP/BAB/Saves and skills compared to a regular PC of the same ECL, while leaving them with the special abilities and properties they were designed with.

One should not expect to get to trade in those LA for HD for free though. And yes, the normal +1 mod per 4 HD gained was an extra exception I made to make sure the variant wasn't too easy to abuse- but I'm not set in stone on that particular facet though. Though I see I need to be more specific about the HD and size progression though- If for example, the 9HD altered LA gargoyle I used as an example gains racial HD after the LA conversion, it should resume any size progression based on racial HD as normal. But not the HD gained from conversion- they are in essense there to replace the empty LA levels, and as such should not make the creature more powerful when it ends up at the same ECL rating.

Interesting interaction on the effect the increased BAB but decreased STR mod can have on combat damage though. Heres a fun example:

Normal ECL 10 Gargoyle(4HD,5LA,1Fighter) vs AC 20 target

Assumed Str 14 (10 base, +4 racial)
Greatsword damage= 2d6+3 damage (average 3.5+3.5+3=10)
Greatsword to-hit= +6 (4 BAB, 2 STR) (aprox 40% chance to hit AC 20, 14 or higher)
Average damage over 20 attacks= 8*10=80

Altered ECL 10 Gargoyle (9HD,1Fighter) vs AC 20

Assumed Str 12 (10 base, +2 racial)
Greatsword damage= 2d6+1 damage (average 3.5+3.5+1=8)
Greatsword to-hit= +11 (10 BAB, 1 STR) (aprox 60% chance to hit AC 20, 9 or higher)
Average damage over 20 attacks= 12*8=96

And this test was skewed in favor of the unmodified Gargoyle too- AC 20 enemies at ECL 10 are kinda on the weak side. And I left out cranking the STR scores a couple points higher and adding in Power attack to them- which the higher BAB Gargoyle (mine) can exploit to easily outdamage the Gargoyle with the better STR thanks to being able to dump BAB into PA to maintain the same hit probability at far greater damage per swing.

The size of your ability mod isn't everything- it's how ya use it!

5) Saves are completely dependant upon the base type of the source of the LA, which can be *very* disadvantagous to a character, especially when entering epic territory where all saves are effectively reduced to poor saves. Rogue 12 Vampire suddenly has a poor Rex save progression from here on out thanks to your system, while normally a Rogue 12 Vampire can continue improving their much needed Ref saves.

Base saves are HD dependant- and whether on is epic is determined by ECL IIRC. I could be wrong though if LA doesn't count towards ECL for Epic- just seems a bit odd to make that exception. My system ends up with same ECL and higher base saves. However, something I noticed:

Size and Type: The creature’s type changes to undead (augmented humanoid or monstrous humanoid). Do not recalculate base attack bonus, saves, or skill points. Size is unchanged.

Looks like I found a refinement I needed to make for the houserule, as apparently the Vampire template just had to go and be a special case. I'll have to specify that one does gain BAB/Save/skill points when converting LA to HD.

Some more numbers....

Basic Rogue 12/Vamp ECL 20 Save bonuses:
Fort= 4 (+4 class, +0 Con)
Reflex= 10 (+8 class, +2 Dex)
Will= 5 (+4 class, +1 Wis)

My version ECL 20 Save bonuses:
Fort= 6 (+4 class, +0 Con, +2 HD) gain!
Reflex= 10 (+8 class, +0 Dex, +2 HD) same
Will= 10 (+4 class, +0 Wis, +6 HD) substantial gain!

Basic Rogue 12/vamp ECL 20 HP:
12d12 HD=90 hp average
My version ECL 20:
20d12 HD=150 average hp


Basic Rogue 12/vamp ECL 20 BAB:
9/4
My version ECL 20 BAB:
13/8

6) Last I checked there were no Int requirements for PCs, only for Humanoids and oddly enough Animals. The point remains, this does not apply equally across all levels. Lord help someone with Ooze HD thanks to their LA.

The separate table for Intelligence ensures that no PC ends up with an Intelligence score lower than 3. This is important, because creatures with an Intelligence score lower than 3 are not playable characters. Creatures with any ability score lower than 1 are also not playable.

Constructs, Oozes, Plants, Vermin, and most Undead and Animals fall under this. Those HD are so sucky for those most part I might reduce the trade cost to 1 stat pt per HD. I can honestly say I have never seen a PC with a template that would convert there LA to Ooze HD however.

 

[Notmousse]

You do have a point- If one takes a feat that one no longer satifies the pre-req for, it cannot be used. Guess the PC better reselect feats they qualify for. I'll make that a specification of the houserule- PC's must reselect feats if the stat trade-in makes them ineligible for feats.

But these are not player picked feats in the case I'm presenting. They're inherited by taking the template. They're an intergral part of the monster.

'Dex 13 is not hard to achieve even under a limited point buy for base stats before racial mods. The extra durability and base saves makes up for the stat loss easily. And one could just pick another feat.'

Again, this is not a feat taken by the character, but on inherited by the template. I can easily see builds where Dex tops out at 12 since it wouldn't be useful for heavy armor builds (and depending one which rules you're using 'Extreme armor' builds).

'Yes, that is certainly the point of the LA- I feel there may be a better way that doesnt leave a PC/villain with extremely anemic HP/BAB/Saves and skills compared to a regular PC of the same ECL, while leaving them with the special abilities and properties they were designed with.'

The only cases where a (N)PC would be 'extremely anemic' are high LA cases like the vampire which are alleviated by more than gengerous helpings of powers. In the presented case Fast Healing 5 among them!

'Heres a fun example:'

Interesting that you decided to give your gargoyle a greatsword, a notoriously high damage weapon, and a level of fighter to wield it. Then there was the botch in BAB in the favor of your altered gargoyle. And of course you're doing this with Gargoyles that have a natural 1 BAB progression instead of the 1/2 BAB progression of the Vampire I used in example. Now let's try this with their natural attacks.

Normal ECL 9 Gargoyle(4HD + 5LA) vs AC 20 target

Assumed Str 14 (10 base, +4 racial)
Natural Attack damage= Claw*2 1d4+2, Bite 1d6+1, Gore 1d6+1 damage (average 4.5*2, 4.5*2 = 18)
Natural Attack to-hit= 6/4 (4 BAB, 2 STR) (25% average chance to hit AC 20, 15 or higher)
Average damage over 5 rounds= 1.25*18=22.5

Altered ECL 9 Gargoyle (9HD) vs AC 20

Assumed Str 12 (10 base, +2 racial)
Natural Attack damage= Claw*2 1d4+1, Bite 1d6, Gore 1d6 damage (average 3.5*2, 3.5*2 = 14)
Natural Attack to-hit= 10/8 (9 BAB, 1 STR) (45% average chance to hit AC 20, 11 or higher)
Average damage over 5 rounds= 2.25*14=31.5

A difference of 9 points of damage, not 16 as in your model. Lower, but still proves that trading HD for LA isn't a good idea.

'The size of your ability mod isn't everything- it's how ya use it!'

But aren't you using an ability to gain this damage advantage? There were no special tactics, just you using a buffed stat (BAB in your case) to overpower another. At which point doesn't this prove that you're buffing creatures further than normal?

'Base saves are HD dependant- and whether on is epic is determined by ECL IIRC. I could be wrong though if LA doesn't count towards ECL for Epic- just seems a bit odd to make that exception. My system ends up with same ECL and higher base saves.'

Good point. Then it would be overbuffing a character for their HD wouldn't it? All these HD benefits on top of massive powers.

'Looks like I found a refinement I needed to make for the houserule, as apparently the Vampire template just had to go and be a special case. I'll have to specify that one does gain BAB/Save/skill points when converting LA to HD.'

That was current HD, not future HD. Your HD for any level changes to D12, so unless you're a barbarian (or Knight IIRC) your HD type changes, but not your saves, skills, etc... If your HD retroactively changed to Undead HD you'd be royally screwed.

'Constructs, Oozes, Plants, Vermin, and most Undead and Animals fall under this. Those HD are so sucky for those most part I might reduce the trade cost to 1 stat pt per HD. I can honestly say I have never seen a PC with a template that would convert there LA to Ooze HD however.'

It was a hypothetical, though the Oozemaster I believe changes it's type to Ooze (thankfully no LA). Either way the trade's not fair, and you'd need to change CR and LA on both to have even a remote possibility of reaching balance.

 

[Overkill_Engine]

But these are not player picked feats in the case I'm presenting. They're inherited by taking the template. They're an intergral part of the monster.

Correction- they are gained by taking the template AND satisfying the pre-requisites. They are in no way integral if the template stat mods don't bump you up high enough to get them for free.

The only cases where a (N)PC would be 'extremely anemic' are high LA cases like the vampire which are alleviated by more than gengerous helpings of powers. In the presented case Fast Healing 5 among them!

A Vampire in melee against an even halfway decently prepared melee character makes elves look manly and testosterone laden, thanks to all those LA levels. And the powers mainly make up for some of the crippling weaknesses of a Vampire.

'Heres a fun example:'

Interesting that you decided to give your gargoyle a greatsword, a notoriously high damage weapon, and a level of fighter to wield it.

Most people expect PC's to have a class level of some sort. And the Gargoyle's favored class is Fighter, and I chose the weapon to illustrate that the STR mod isn't everything and losing some of it does not gimp the character at all.

Then there was the botch in BAB in the favor of your altered gargoyle. And of course you're doing this with Gargoyles that have a natural 1 BAB progression instead of the 1/2 BAB progression of the Vampire I used in example. Now let's try this with their natural attacks.

Yeah, my bad on forgetting to tack on the calcs for the Fighter level on the standard Gargoyle. It does shift the hit probability by 5%. And heavens forbid I use something that stands to gain possibly a decent amount from a conversion of this type to try to show that the conversion won't gimp the character.

Normal ECL 9 Gargoyle(4HD + 5LA) vs AC 20 target
Assumed Str 14 (10 base, +4 racial)
Natural Attack damage= Claw*2 1d4+2, Bite 1d6+1, Gore 1d6+1 damage (average 4.5*2, 4.5*2 = 18)
Natural Attack to-hit= 6/4 (4 BAB, 2 STR) (25% average chance to hit AC 20, 15 or higher)
Average damage over 5 rounds= 1.25*18=22.5

Altered ECL 9 Gargoyle (9HD) vs AC 20
Assumed Str 12 (10 base, +2 racial)
Natural Attack damage= Claw*2 1d4+1, Bite 1d6, Gore 1d6 damage (average 3.5*2, 3.5*2 = 14)
Natural Attack to-hit= 10/8 (9 BAB, 1 STR) (45% average chance to hit AC 20, 11 or higher)
Average damage over 5 rounds= 2.25*14=31.5

A difference of 9 points of damage, not 16 as in your model. Lower, but still proves that trading HD for LA isn't a good idea.

More detailed version, takes following into account (but not criticals):

ATTACK ROLL

An attack roll represents your attempt to strike your opponent on your turn in a round. When you make an attack roll, you roll a d20 and add your attack bonus. (Other modifiers may also apply to this roll.) If your result equals or beats the target’s Armor Class, you hit and deal damage.

Normal ECL 9 Gargoyle (4HD, 5LA) vs AC 20
Assumed Str 14 (10 base, +4 racial)
Claw 1d4+2 (avg 4.5) +6 to hit (35% chance, or 7 out of 20 rolls) damage over 20 attacks=31.5
Claw 1d4+2 (avg 4.5) +6 to hit (35% chance, or 7 out of 20 rolls) damage over 20 attacks=31.5
Bite 1d6+1 (avg 4.5) +4 to hit (25% chance, or 5 out of 20 rolls) damage over 20 attacks=22.5
Gore 1d6+1 (avg 4.5) +4 to hit (25% chance, or 5 out of 20 rolls) damage over 20 attacks=22.5
Total damage over 20 rounds=108
Over Five rounds avg=27

Altered ECL 9 Gargoyle (9HD) vs AC 20
Assumed Str 14 (10 base, +2 racial)
Claw 1d4+1 (avg 3.5) +10 to hit (55% chance, or 11 out of 20 rolls) damage over 20 attacks=38.5
Claw 1d4+1 (avg 3.5) +10 to hit (55% chance, or 11 out of 20 rolls) damage over 20 attacks=38.5
Bite 1d6+0 (avg 3.5) +8 to hit (45% chance, or 9 out of 20 rolls) damage over 20 attacks=31.5
Gore 1d6+0 (avg 3.5) +8 to hit (45% chance, or 9 out of 20 rolls) damage over 20 attacks=31.5
Total damage over 20 rounds=140
Over Five rounds avg=35

At which point doesn't this prove that you're buffing creatures further than normal?

No matter how many HD you get under your system it'll never get those 3 damage per hit back.

Boy you turned coat real fast.

Anyways- keep in mind the losses of stat boni in other areas. Basically one gains more stable combat performance at the expense of having those other bonuses. Trade one for the other. Kinda the point.

Base saves are HD dependant- and whether on is epic is determined by ECL IIRC. I could be wrong though if LA doesn't count towards ECL for Epic- just seems a bit odd to make that exception. My system ends up with same ECL and higher base saves.

Good point. Then it would be overbuffing a character for their HD wouldn't it? All these HD benefits on top of massive powers.

More like shifting the power around, decreasing the emphasis on stat mods but rather moving more towards being able to survive more on par with a character that has nothing but class levels.

Looks like I found a refinement I needed to make for the houserule, as apparently the Vampire template just had to go and be a special case. I'll have to specify that one does gain BAB/Save/skill points when converting LA to HD.

That was current HD, not future HD. Your HD for any level changes to D12, so unless you're a barbarian (or Knight IIRC) your HD type changes, but not your saves, skills, etc... If your HD retroactively changed to Undead HD you'd be royally screwed.

Misinterpretation- not suggesting changing old Class HD into undead HD. Those get to be bumped to d12's as normal- what I mean is making sure to point out that the extra HD from the LA conversion are intended to add to BAB/saves/skills, even though special template text would lead one to believe otherwise.

Constructs, Oozes, Plants, Vermin, and most Undead and Animals fall under this. Those HD are so sucky for those most part I might reduce the trade cost to 1 stat pt per HD. I can honestly say I have never seen a PC with a template that would convert there LA to Ooze HD however.'

It was a hypothetical, though the Oozemaster I believe changes it's type to Ooze (thankfully no LA). Either way the trade's not fair, and you'd need to change CR and LA on both to have even a remote possibility of reaching balance.

Again, not suggesting recalculating old HD when template LA is converted. So far it seems this system works best with base critters, not templates anyways. Then again, the template system is far from perfect, so that's not saying much.