I guess if you misrepresent yourself materially in some agreement. I don’t imagine it’s protected in the same way that it’s illegal to impersonate a police officer or conduct surgery.
TSR LaNasa is back, and working with TSR Hobbies
- Thread starter LordEntrails
- Start date
I think it only counts as fraud if it is somehow material to business.
Maxperson
Morkus from Orkus
For it to be fraud, it would have to follow these steps.
(1) a representation of fact;
(2) its falsity;
(3) its materiality;
(4) the representer’s knowledge of its falsity or ignorance of its truth;
(5) the representer’s intent that it should be acted upon by the person in the manner reasonably contemplated;
(6) the injured party’s ignorance of its falsity;
(7) the injured party’s reliance on its truth;
(8) the injured party’s right to rely thereon; and
(9) the injured party’s consequent and proximate injury.
I'm not sure what business deal could rely on the company being an LLC, but there might be some ways for it to happen out there.
Misrepresentation in business is a bit easier, but still has the same issue.
- First, the defendant made a material representation of fact to the plaintiff;
- Second, the defendant knew at the time he made the representation that it was false;
- Third, the defendant meant for the plaintiff to rely on the false statement;
- Fourth, the plaintiff did in fact so rely on it, and the reliance was justifiable; and
- Fifth, that in relying on the false statement, the plaintiff suffered injury or loss.
LordEntrails
Hero
They probably plan to file the paperwork for an LLC. But maybe its just not that important to them or they are waiting to actually make enough money to cover the cost?
Whatever the case, lack of doing so along with all their other exhibited behavior just verifies the type of people they are.
Whatever the case, lack of doing so along with all their other exhibited behavior just verifies the type of people they are.
Willie the Duck
Hero
Not a lawyer, just a guy with an MBA, but the rule of thumb was if you misrepresented yourself and then money changed hands or a business transaction occurred through the mail (yes, I am dating my expertise pretty strongly here), boom, then things got criminal. Just calling themselves an LLC but then not doing anything businesslike is on par with Bill from Bill&Ted being "William S. Preston Esq." without having a JD (or the reasons you are an esquire in the UK, etc.) .
A good guess, or at least that might be the plan if they go ahead with becoming any kind of content creators/goods distributors. It still feels like the current plan is still milking donations from the people who love the victimhood angle while they figure out what they are actually capable of long-term (if there is any long term above next month's bills).
Maxperson
Morkus from Orkus
There might be other laws that I'm unaware of, not being an attorney, either, but if you look at both the elements of fraud I posted above(criminal) and misrepresentation(civil), damages need to happen. If I misrepresent myself to you as an LLC, you give me money, and then I uphold the agreement and you get what you were entitled to, you were not damaged so no fraud or misrepresentation(tort) occurred.
Mail would bring federal law into this and I'm even less familiar with federal law.
Willie the Duck
Hero
It might not be fraud per se, then, although damages is always a tricky one with a kinda expansive interpretation at times. You falsely say you are a licensed electrician and install wiring in my house perfectly, I'm still damaged.
There are some pretty intricate rules regarding mail (and credit card) fraud that we really shouldn't even stab at without a lawyer weighing in (although that might violate forum rules, I know it does on other RPG forums). All I know is those were the kind of things my professors always treated as third rails/how they'd get ya (so don't do it) kind of things.
Maxperson
Morkus from Orkus
What are the damages? What have you lost simply by the work being done by an unlicensed person?
Now, if you subsequently hire a licensed person to double check the work, those costs would be damages, but if you don't and just accept the work, you aren't out anything.
Yeah. Because they can easily result in damages, but actual damages(financial harm) are required.
Willie the Duck
Hero
I now have a house I can't sell.
Maxperson
Morkus from Orkus
Why can't you just get a new electrician to fix the issue? But yes, if it's preventing the sale of a house, those are damages. It's costing you money. However, not all instances of an unlicensed electrician doing work will cause damages.
Faolyn
(she/her)
Possibly literal damages if the work was shoddy and (in the case of an electrician) caused a power surge that destroyed an electric device or made something catch on fire.
Willie the Duck
Hero
I can. I can pay another person to (probably) come and rip out everything that was done and redo the work, costing more than the original project. That is financial damage to me, which was the original point I made.
This is all getting very far afield from Lanasa and nuTSR, are we sure anyone cares about this tangent?
As an example - unlicensed electrical work tends to void insurance claims.
Nefermandias
Hero
That's right. They are not interested in learning because they already have their target audience.
I don't think we should even be having the discussion about legalities around declaring yourself as an LLC when you're not. I don't think that's going to be helpful, and none of us to my knowledge or lawyers in that specialty. And ultimately, I don't think it matters. none of us are going to sue Don.
The only reason this matters (to me) isn't from a legal perspective, but just from a trust perspective.
They said they were an LLC and they are not
Their website listed on the "press release" didn't exist at the time they sent it.
They used images from Heroforge on their product before removing it after being called out.
Michael continues to say it was untrue that Justin asked for money from Luke to use DHS during Garycon, but Luke has confirmed this is true
They moved their Convention to match GaryCon for what I feel are dubious reasons.
The whole history of June/July with all the untruthful shenanigans they were doing
So all those things above, while most likely all legal (except the Heroforge part), tell me that I don't trust them, and that I don't believe this "threatening anonymous email" is necessarily true. Especially since it was written in the same grammar style as Justin, errors and all.
Discussing the legalities of all this is moot, IMO.
The only reason this matters (to me) isn't from a legal perspective, but just from a trust perspective.
They said they were an LLC and they are not
Their website listed on the "press release" didn't exist at the time they sent it.
They used images from Heroforge on their product before removing it after being called out.
Michael continues to say it was untrue that Justin asked for money from Luke to use DHS during Garycon, but Luke has confirmed this is true
They moved their Convention to match GaryCon for what I feel are dubious reasons.
The whole history of June/July with all the untruthful shenanigans they were doing
So all those things above, while most likely all legal (except the Heroforge part), tell me that I don't trust them, and that I don't believe this "threatening anonymous email" is necessarily true. Especially since it was written in the same grammar style as Justin, errors and all.
Discussing the legalities of all this is moot, IMO.
This site is about luxury hobby entertainment games. Pretty much everything we discuss on EN World is moot. If we were to reject discussion that didn't really matter, there'd be like three threads.
Willie the Duck
Hero
Agreed and good points all around.
True, but I want to avoid any implications that someone accuses another company or person of doing something illegal. That way lies trouble. Especially when it's not really impactful to the overall point (that being trust)
Ancalagon
Dusty Dragon
Yeah, it was more of an idle question that I hoped someone would answer quickly, I didn't mean to start a legal debate!
But yes, I don't think that... we don't know that they are lying, but I'm not sure that we can accept what they say at face value. Don't forget the sponsors - either being sponsors they control, or one that (allegedly) has denied being a sponsor.
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