D&D 4E Large Races?

[Knightfall]

Has anyone come up with a way to incorporate large races into 4e for PCs?

(I'm assuming that WotC hasn't created anything like this and that they don't plan to.)

Are large-sized (or larger) races even viable in 4e?

 

[Engilbrand]

No. Part of the reason is that they've stated that they don't want a PC to use a large weapon. That's why they've removed the ability from Monster Races that they've turned into PC Races.
What would you hope to get out of being Large? Goliaths and Minotaurs are pretty big, but they can't use Large weapons.

 

[Fanaelialae]

The best I've come up with is to replace scaling damage dice with a flat +1 damage bonus for large weapons. In other words, a large-sized longsword would deal 1d8+1 damage.

IMO, the major reason that using large races is discouraged is that large-sized weapons offer an unreasonable advantage when using attacks with multiple [w] dice (due to scaling). There are other issues to deal with when considering large races (reach, big space, not being able to follow the rest of the party through a kobold bolt hole, etc.) but weapon dice seem to be the main prohibitive factor.

You could similarly expand weapon choices for small races by allowing them to wield small-sized versions of otherwise unusable weapons (a halfling-sized greatsword) at a -1 penalty to damage rolls (1d10-1).

I haven't actually tested this in play; it's just part of a house rules document I've been putting together for fun.

 

[Knightfall]

No. Part of the reason is that they've stated that they don't want a PC to use a large weapon. That's why they've removed the ability from Monster Races that they've turned into PC Races.
What would you hope to get out of being Large? Goliaths and Minotaurs are pretty big, but they can't use Large weapons.

In a fantasy world where there are a variety of races, anyone should be able to become a hero. And to say that a large-sized creature could never become a hero is... just... strange.

(In my opinion.)

 

[Knightfall]

The best I've come up with is to replace scaling damage dice with a flat +1 damage bonus for large weapons. In other words, a large-sized longsword would deal 1d8+1 damage.

IMO, the major reason that using large races is discouraged is that large-sized weapons offer an unreasonable advantage when using attacks with multiple [w] dice (due to scaling). There are other issues to deal with when considering large races (reach, big space, not being able to follow the rest of the party through a kobold bolt hole, etc.) but weapon dice seem to be the main prohibitive factor.

You could similarly expand weapon choices for small races by allowing them to wield small-sized versions of otherwise unusable weapons (a halfling-sized greatsword) at a -1 penalty to damage rolls (1d10-1).

I haven't actually tested this in play; it's just part of a house rules document I've been putting together for fun.

That's an interesting idea but I think I'd make the bonus +2 for large weapons, +4 for huge weapons, and +6 (or even +8) for gargantuan weapons.

I will definitely allow the option of smaller sized weapons for halflings and gnomes.

 

[Knightfall]

I think for the large races I want to create, I'm going to look at it this way. PC races that are large won't use the exact same weapon rules as Large monsters use.

Here's my idea...

* A large-sized PC race uses weapons as per a Medium-sized race but they gain a +1 bonus to all weapons with one weapon die and +2 to all weapons with two weapon dice. For example, a Firbolg PC's greataxe does 1d12+1 damage while its heavy flail does 2d6+2 damage.

* They can use medium-sized Two-Handed weapons but cannot use medium-sized One-Handed weapons (as per the PHB). However, they can have customized One-Handed weapons made for them, which increases the weapons die but such weapons cost 3 times (or maybe 4 times) as much as Medium-sized weapons.

* Reach is as per pg. 220 of the PHB.

 

[Fanaelialae]

I think for the large races I want to create, I'm going to look at it this way. PC races that are large won't use the exact same weapon rules as Large monsters use.

Here's my idea...

* A large-sized PC race uses weapons as per a Medium-sized race but they gain a +1 bonus to all weapons with one weapon die and +2 to all weapons with two weapon dice. For example, a Firbolg PC's greataxe does 1d12+1 damage while its heavy flail does 2d6+2 damage.

It seems odd to base the bonus off weapon dice. Why does a giant hit harder with a heavy flail than a greataxe?

Ideally, you want to consider the +x to weapon damage as an "invisible" racial feature for any large races (much easier to balance if you keep it as a consistent bonus).

* They can use medium-sized Two-Handed weapons but cannot use medium-sized One-Handed weapons (as per the PHB). However, they can have customized One-Handed weapons made for them, which increases the weapons die but such weapons cost 3 times (or maybe 4 times) as much as Medium-sized weapons.

I would strongly urge you to reconsider allowing large races any increased weapon dice. Weapon dice scale with level. Flat bonuses do not.

Even at 3 or 4 times the cost, a character can easily afford such an upgraded weapon by level 2, at the latest.

Additionally, despite limiting the upgrade to one-handed weapons, such a weapon affords a large fighter most of the damage benefits of 2H fighter while retaining the defensive benefits of sword-and-board. Not only is it a significant power boost to the large weapon-and-shield user, but also spells extinction for the two-handing weapon user. Why use a 1d10+1 greatsword when you can use a 1d10+1 longsword and benefit from a shield for a paltry extra 40 gold?

* Reach is as per pg. 220 of the PHB.

As long as you stay away from Threatening Reach this should be fine. However, keep in mind that reach should also be treated as a racial feature for the purpose of balancing any large race.

 

[Knightfall]

It seems odd to base the bonus off weapon dice. Why does a giant hit harder with a heavy flail than a greataxe?

Ideally, you want to consider the +x to weapon damage as an "invisible" racial feature for any large races (much easier to balance if you keep it as a consistent bonus).

Well, I'm still learning this system, so I can't say for certain that I've decided 100% on anything, yet.

I don't think I'll make it an "invisible" racial feature, regardless; I want it to be a visible bonus.

I would strongly urge you to reconsider allowing large races any increased weapon dice. Weapon dice scale with level. Flat bonuses do not.

Even at 3 or 4 times the cost, a character can easily afford such an upgraded weapon by level 2, at the latest.

Additionally, despite limiting the upgrade to one-handed weapons, such a weapon affords a large fighter most of the damage benefits of 2H fighter while retaining the defensive benefits of sword-and-board. Not only is it a significant power boost to the large weapon-and-shield user, but also spells extinction for the two-handing weapon user. Why use a 1d10+1 greatsword when you can use a 1d10+1 longsword and benefit from a shield for a paltry extra 40 gold?

I'm thinking I need to study the PHB combat chapter a little bit. I haven't looked at that yet.

Thanks for the advice.

As long as you stay away from Threatening Reach this should be fine. However, keep in mind that reach should also be treated as a racial feature for the purpose of balancing any large race.

I figured that reach should be a racial feature as well as space.

 

[Knightfall]

...

 

[Engilbrand]

At no point did I even hint that Large creatures shouldn't be heroes. I have no idea where you got that. Large creatures aren't typically appropriate for PCs, though, and it's mainly because of the weapon issue. If you change the dice, then there are a number of abilities that work different. A Craghammer is a d10, Brutal 2 weapon. If it moves up a size, is the Brutal 2 still appropriate? What about a weapon that changes from 1 big die to 2 smaller dice. The Brutal property suddenly become incredibly powerful. That's part of the reason that they don't want Large PCs.