Large scale combat

[Davek]

Greetings,

Does anyone have any links to a simple, effective and easy to use method/mechanism for larger scale combats? The party in my game will be assaulting a small keep defended by at least 100 men. The party will have a support force of about 60 men.

I want the battle to flow fairly smoothly, and would like to map out several possible paths in advance if possible. I guess I could just design a plot that provides for an 'epic' struggle for the keep, and just have the parties actions determine the final result, but knowing their tendency to come up with unanticipated tactics, I think that I need something that will allow me to efficiently run the battle in 'real time'. Also, the party will be running the group of 60, so I'm not totaly sure what path they are going to go.

For anyone that is interested, the keep has been abandoned for many years, and the walls are in disrepair and the front gate is basically several rotten planks braced from the inside, so entry into the keep should not pose too much of a problem, but it will be in the face of massed missle fire.

 

[Mark]

I'm not satisfied that there is a system out there that currently handles Large Scale Combat in a way that utilizes the d20 system mechanics to their fullest. For my own part, I have been working on one and use this as a basis-

http://www.creativemountaingames.com/games/lexus/lexus_group_combat.pdf

Perhaps it will be of some help to you, too. (Hope so!)

 

[CCamfield]

AEG's Mercenaries book has a "skirmish combat system" which handles somewhat large battles by grouping identical individuals into units of up to 10, and mostly uses the regular combat mechanics. (Units which hit by a sufficient margin may inflict multiples of their damage; damage to units always goes to an injured unit member, and then to the next non-injured member, which would save on bookkeeping.)

I haven't actually used the system, but if you used 10-character units, that would give you 10 units on one side, and 6 on the other - plus individuals like the PCs - which sounds reasonable to manage.

 

[Davek]

Thanks Mark.

Some of these items will be of use to the defenders, as they are a trained military unit (in a hostile nation). The attackers (the party and others) most likely willl not be able to use any, seeing as they just arrived in the area, and have 2 - 3 days to gather an assortment of men-at-arms, retired adventurers, soldiers and woodsmen and breach the keep before the defenders have a chance to finish repairs to the front gate.

If I cannot find anything already done, I may need to generate a set of 'war game' charts, and just run it like an old style table top war.

 

[Brisk-sg]

AEG's Swashbuckling Adventures has a Mass Combat mechanic. It works relatively well. We had some real fun with it in our Birthright Campaign.

It works as such:

1) Decide the # of individuals in the unit (normally all of the same type of soldier).

2) Add up the total HP for the unit HP, as well as find the average HP for a soldier in the unit. Every time the unit is damaged, remove HP from the total, and kill off a # of individuals equal to Hitpoints lost/soldier HP.

3) Find the Average of all of their common stats, such as AC, To-Hit, STR, DEX, CON, WIS, INT, CHR. These are the unit stats.

4) They can use feats that are common to the entire unit. For instance a cavalry unit would likely have Mounted Combat and other riding feats.

5) Find the Average for Skill that might apply to a battle such as the Ride Skill

6) The combat is handled largely like a normal personal combat, with the following exception. When you roll to-hit, a % of the unit hits based off of how successful you are per a table in the book. I don't have the book with me right now so I can't type out the table. I believe if you are +5 over the TN to hit then 100% of the unit connects. You roll the damage dice for weapon being used, and then multiply that by the number of men who connect. So if 10% of a unit of 100 connects, then they deal 10 x rolled damage. This damage is applied to the Unit HP, and you take off a number of soldiers that HP add up to that amount.

7) It sounds somewhat cumbersome, but actually works well as long as you put the stats together ahead of time. I just them down on an index card for each unit.

I ran a battle between 500 on one side, and 1000 on the other using these rules. They worked well enough.

This mechanic is OGL, and I believe that AEG may have gotten it from another source, though I can't remember which.

- Josh

 

[Brisk-sg]

One other thing to note on the above rules I mentioned. They work well even if you have the heroes doing there own thing. So if your fighter charges the entire unit by himself you don't have to change the rules. He makes his attack roll(s) and does damage to the unit like normal, and they use the unit rules to attack him (which could be very bad for the fighter).

 

[gariig]

How do they handle magic..one mage could toast a fairly large army if they don't have any magic of their own. Just curious of this.

Gariig

 

[Jemal]

Personally, I like the rules from the Quintessential Fighter. (Yeah that book again.. It's my fave)

The system is similar to AEG, but better.

They've got 4 pages on common mercs/soldiers, a section that is excelent for mass combat, and even rules for strongholds and attacking strongholds. It's called the "Open Mass Combat System" and resolves around Units.

Units have Stat blocks, just like characters. They've got unit HP, attack bonuses, etc.

There's also rules for resolving unit VS unit, Unit VS PC, Unit Vs Magic, Unit vs War Machines, and unit Vs Stronghold. They've got rules for archery, cavalry, infantry, Siege weapons, and skirmishers in Unit Combat. They have combat modifiers for how badly you outnumber your opponent unit, multiple units engaging, aiding other units, Morale, Withdrawing, and Experience for units (So they can become more effective).

It's the most effective system I've seen.

The whole section on Mercs/soldiers, Mass Combat, and Strongholds is about 20 pages.

Just to answer your magiks question, here's how it's handled in Open Mass Combat:

Offensive spells cause normal damage to a Unit HP (even if it normally affects only one subject) due to the close density of fighting men. Any spell that has an area of effect deals it's damage again for every 10' radius/length/width beyond the original 10.

Spells that cause effects other than damage (Bane, bless, etc) will only work if they affect the majority of the members.(over 50%)

Spells that affect multiple opponents but don't deal damage, and seem like they should have an effect (Entangle, Sleep) will Remove Unit HP from the total equivalent to the soldiers they remove from the combat.

EDIT: Just thought I should throw the UNIT HP rules in here: 1 HP per HD of a member. Find Average Con. Add Or subtract (Con ModX10)% of the total to the Unit HP.
This works very well - As you said, a mage can toast a fair sized army if he's got the range.

EX: unit of 30 Human Warriors(lvl 1). Avg Con =10, so unit HP = 30
Fireball from a 5th level mage does 5d6 damage, + another 5d6 for it's size. 10d6 damage to 30 HP... that units pretty much gone. (Avg 30 damage)

As for PCs versing this unit.. they either count as part of a unit themselves(counting as any other soldier), or they go fight other units at a 1v1 basis. Any soldier they kill has whatever he contributed to the Unit removed from it. The most common form, though, is to have the PCs fighting the (usually fairly powerful) Enemy leaders in 'normal' combat.

 

[Davek]

Offensive spells cause normal damage to a Unit HP (even if it normally affects only one subject) due to the close density of fighting men. Any spell that has an area of effect deals it's damage again for every 10' radius/length/width beyond the original 10.

Why would an area effect cause more damage if used against a massed Unit? Or do you mean a Unit of Mages (in your fireball example) causes the extra damage as opposed to a single mage vs. the unit?